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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Womb transplants for trans women are a human right, says surgeon

766 replies

QuietContraryMary · 08/02/2019 22:14

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/transgender-women-should-entitled-womb-13972102

"Because once the medical community accept this as a treatment for cis-women with uterine infertility, such as congenital absence of a womb, then it would be illegal to deny a trans-female who has completed her transition.

"The most important step is the harvesting from the donor as great care is required to avoid damage to the arteries and veins supplying the uterus.
Trans females have a much narrower pelvis than cis-women of the same height, but there would still be room for them to carry a child.

“Supplemental hormones could be taken to replicate the changes that occur in the body when a woman is pregnant.

OP posts:
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OdeToDiazepam · 09/02/2019 13:52

@Jazzbunny more transwomen are murdered in the uk than women

Where the fuck are you getting this offensive crap from?

Why don't you educate yourself.
2 women a week are killed by current or ex partners, male violence is the biggest killer of women aged 15-44 in the world

I can't go a fucking day where I read the news and DONT see at least 2-3 women killed, abducted, raped, attacked

OldCrone · 09/02/2019 13:53

these neuroscientists are still demonstrating through scans that there is a difference between the brains of transwomen and men.

If this is actually true, couldn't it be used as a diagnostic tool to decide whether someone is 'really' trans or is just pretending or confused?

Bowlofbabelfish · 09/02/2019 13:54

she is still saying that there is a difference, and these neuroscientists are still demonstrating through scans that there is a difference between the brains of transwomen and men.

Untrue. Check that thread I linked to. The signals are not causative. It’s not sure if they’re caused BY gender dysphoria or predispose TO gender dysphoria. There’s insufficinet control for steroid hormones being taken. There’s insufficient citations tell for homosexuality based signals, there’s no true control group at all actually. What they found is that the brains of self identified transwomen had some differences from the rest of the men but were still more similar to men than to women On average.

What it isn’t, is an ‘I’m a lady’ marker.

OdeToDiazepam · 09/02/2019 13:55

both women and transwomen face the same attack from the same people

NO they categorically do not. A transwomen in the uk is more likely to be a murderer than murdered HTH

And show me where a transwomen has been attacked by a woman (or even a man in recent times)... I'll wait

You want me to show you the numerous recent reports of transwomen who have attacked women? Really? Cos there's quite a few

Datun · 09/02/2019 13:55

The murder rate per capita of unicycle-riding clowns is probably higher.

Bowlofbabelfish · 09/02/2019 14:00

jazzbunny the idea of gender has zero scientific basis. It’s effectivey a faith based position. Now if you are religious and believe in souls then that’s your right and I can’t tell you not to.

But what I can tell you is that SEX is set at conception and immutable. humans cannot change sex.

There is no specific biological basis yet found for being trans. I suspect (and this is only my interpretation) that some predisposition to fragile sense of self is common to many disorders such as the dyaphoric disorders. The manifestation of that disorder is, i suspect, strongly influenced by the society you find yourself in. So anorexia for example, as a method of regaining control for (predominantly) women who find themselves in a situation they cannot otherwise exert power in.

The existence of ROGD and social contagion, especially in young females, seems to back this up. I know other professionals are thinking along the same lines.

Datun · 09/02/2019 14:02

So they're not murdered at a higher rate, they don't develop a female brain inside a male body, they're far more likely to be financially well off, middle-class, educated porn addicted, IT consultants. (Literally, there are loads).

But the idea persists that there is a fragile, trembling bunch of men identifying as women who must be given womb implants to save their mental health?

GlitterStick · 09/02/2019 14:04

And show me where a transwomen has been attacked by a woman (or even a man in recent times)... I'll wait

You seriously think no transpeople have been attacked in recent times at all (by either a man or a woman?) how on earth can you possibly declare that as a fact and put on an I'll wait at the end?
Of course they bloody are. Not all, no, but you can't possibly believe that none are ever getting attacked recently.

NeurotrashWarrior · 09/02/2019 14:06

Jazz of course I read the last bit.

Don't fall into the trap that this woman is writing about.

Brains are very very plastic.

Mindfulness has been shown to physically alter the brain's structure to reduce the size of the amygdala which is often responsible for extreme anxiety and depression.

A woman's brain is different structurally. Their pituitary gland will be set up differently to correctly deal with pregnancy.

Pregnancy physically changes the structure of the female brain for two years, enlarging bits that deal with caring etc. Interestingly, men who do a large proportion of early baby care also have some of these changes. Does it make them women? No. It makes them a parent.

She points out that minds (aka personality) are a completely different thing. There's no such thing as a female mind or personality. This is extraordinarily sexist and is exactly what women fought for to pr be they could do any job a man can.

There's more variation within each sex in terms of brain personality expression than there is between the sexes.

NeurotrashWarrior · 09/02/2019 14:08

Interestingly, hormone blockers stop the front part of the brain developing in puberty which, in normal puberty, begins to over ride the immature amygdala that's responsible for immature reactions and thought processes. Hence teen strops as there's massive reorganisation. Blockers stop this important process.

OdeToDiazepam · 09/02/2019 14:08

In the uk?

Well I'm pretty sure it would be plastered all over the news and we'd never hear the end of it. So by the lack of any kind of reports I'm going to assume there have been no serious attacks on transwomen recently.

I don't have to look to hard to find reports of women attacked with an axe.. sexually attacked etc.. by transwomen

JazzyBBG · 09/02/2019 14:10

Well maybe with all this desire for wombs the trans women will start to have a little more respect for real women... some hope but where else are they going to get them from?

Datun · 09/02/2019 14:13

Given that the murder rate for transwomen is lower than almost any other cohort, I don't see why it's a big leap to think that the attack rate for them would be the same.

I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise, of course. Gay bashing was certainly a thing back in the day.

But there should be some studies to back it up. Not self-selecting studies, either. They're not worth the paper they're written on.

Bowlofbabelfish · 09/02/2019 14:15

You seriously think no transpeople have been attacked in recent times at all (by either a man or a woman?)

I’d very much hope they aren’t being attacked - we all have a right to live safely and nobody should face physical attack, work discrimination etc for their appearance or presentation.

I’d be very interested to see any recent UK report of a physical attack on a transwoman by a woman. I assume as it’s so commonplace you have plenty of examples?

MargueritaPink · 09/02/2019 14:15

Of course they bloody are. Not all, no, but you can't possibly believe that none are ever getting attacked recently

And none are reported? In no media?

I googled "Pink News attacks on trans women in the UK " - this is the result.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/12/25/murder-trans-woman-malaysia/amp/

The only murder I found was that of Naomi Hersi.

Bowlofbabelfish · 09/02/2019 14:16

By the way ‘attack’ doesn’t include ‘disagreed with on twitter.’

reallyanotherone · 09/02/2019 14:16

And what evidence do I have that they're a vulnerable group... well for starters as a percentage, more transwomen are murdered in the UK than women

Are you talking about absolute percentages? That the % of tw in the population is lower so therefore one murder = a relatively high % of tw.

Statistical manipulation.

The rarer the population group the more each event skews the results.

OdeToDiazepam · 09/02/2019 14:17

Yes just to reiterate, I don't wish any violence towards transpeople

But I do get very angry when the violence women face is minimised like this, when it is shameful and abhorrent and I am so sick and tired of seeing it every. Single. Day.

R0wantrees · 09/02/2019 14:17

The manifestation of that disorder is, i suspect, strongly influenced by the society you find yourself in. So anorexia for example, as a method of regaining control for (predominantly) women who find themselves in a situation they cannot otherwise exert power in.

The existence of ROGD and social contagion, especially in young females, seems to back this up. I know other professionals are thinking along the same lines.

Bowl this article specifically about buhemia and social contagion is worth reading.
'The Strange, Contagious History of Bulimia'
(extract)
In 1972, a woman checked into London’s Royal Free Hospital to be treated for anorexia. “I found her symptoms to be unique,” Gerald Russell, the British psychologist who treated her, tells me. “They didn’t match the diagnostic criteria for anorexia at all.” Unlike his emaciated patients with sallow skin and big eyes, Russell’s new patient was of average weight. Her face was full. Her cheeks were pink as the skin of an onion. She was the first of roughly thirty instances of this unusual condition that crossed the threshold of his clinic over the next seven years, each person presenting with perplexing purging behaviors secondary to binge eating. Russell wasn’t dealing with anorexia nervosa, he realized, but something as yet undefined by psychology or medicine.

In fact, he had stumbled upon a condition that science had yet to see in large numbers or identify at any time in the long history of eating disorders. Psychological Medicine published Russell’s ensuing paper on these unusual cases; in it, he described the key features of this novel mental illness he was now referring to as bulimia nervosa. Many in the scientific community objected to Russell’s conclusions, pointing to the limited and problematic sample size he’d used. At the time, however, there were simply too few cases for Russell to draw from. The pool in the 1970s was just too small.

As bulimia gained further diagnostic legitimacy in 1980 with its inclusion in the third edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Russell ruefully tracked its unexpectedly swift spread across Europe and North America, where it infiltrated college campuses, affecting 15 percent of female students in sororities, all-women dormitories, and female collegiate sports teams. The disease moved through the halls of American high schools, where binging, fasting, diet pill use, and other eating disorder symptoms easily clustered. He chased its dispersion across Egypt, where the number of new cases grew to 400,000. In Canada, it swelled to 600,000. In Russia, 800,000. In India, 6 million. In China, 7 million. In the UK, one out of every one hundred women was now developing the disorder.

“It makes you wonder if maybe bulimia wasn’t a new eating disorder, that it was always there and people just didn’t notice it or talk about it before your paper came out,” I offer.

Russell demurs politely. If the hidden afflicted numbered as overwhelmingly high as they now seem, surely the condition would have made itself known well before he — or anyone, for that matter — identified it. “You might suggest it required somebody to come along and put two and two together before people felt safe talking about bulimia, but I don’t believe that.
“Until then,” he continued, “the disorder was extremely rare. But after 1980, it became widespread in a very short period of time. Once it was described, and I take full responsibility for that with my paper, there was a common language for it. And knowledge spreads very quickly.”

With this knowledge, Russell’s discovery took on characteristics of a pandemic that was set to claim 30 million people, but neither he nor anyone could do a thing at that point to stop it. He was confronted, he says, by a problem of entropy, a gradual decline into disorder with devastating implications for social contagions: once they are out, they are virtually impossible to rein it back in again.(continues)
www.thecut.com/article/how-bulimia-became-a-medical-diagnosis.html

The author Lee Daniel Kravetz has also written a book, 'Strange Contagion,Inside the Surprising Science of Infectious Behaviors & Viral Emotions & What They Tell Us About Ourselves'
leedanielkravetz.com/what-we-do/

Datun · 09/02/2019 14:23

R0wantrees

God, that's very sobering. And with the advent of the Internet, the contagions will spread like wildfire.

And yet you still get people claiming that ROGD doesn't exist. Because it undermines the born in the wrong body narrative.

Dangerous, sick bastards.

NeurotrashWarrior · 09/02/2019 14:37

Another example of how brains are plastic and so gendered external inputs influence personality or 'mind' expression:

Many stereotypical girls toys do not include space shape problem solving elements. There's been a direct link between falling attainment in spatial numeracy skills and lack of these toys in early childhood. Reversed by more exposure to these types of toys and puzzles.

GlitterStick · 09/02/2019 14:37

The only murder I found was that of Naomi Hersi.

Only one? That you can find? Oh, only one, that''s alright then. Hmm
Loads more attacks will go unreported, probably due to minimising and people who don't believe them
FFS.

FloralBunting · 09/02/2019 14:48

I'm pretty damned sure that there aren't scads of murders of trans people in the UK going unreported.Hmm

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 09/02/2019 14:49

without having to come here

Gosh. The solution for that would be...not posting here?

WeRiseUp · 09/02/2019 14:49

A bit late to the thread.

But how about how 'not believing someone has changed sex' = 'denying someone's identity' = 'denying their existence' = 'erasing their existence' = 'literal murder'.

Every time someone says 'humans can't change sex', thousands are 'literally murdered'.

Which is the most important thing. Far more important than VAWG.