I've realised that I just don't like men very much...

[SandAndSnow]

And I wanted to talk through it a bit, if that's ok. I hope this is the right place.

I'm sitting on a train next to a terrible man spreader so I'm feeling a bit raged at the moment, but it's also made me realise that I increasingly tend to treat men with caution and, if I'm honest, dislike.

I'm in my early thirties, have been sexually assaulted by 3 different boys/men, had a truly awful experience with a bullying (male) obstetrician, my father is an emotionally and at times physically abusive bully and I've been passed over for promotion in favour of a younger and less well qualified colleague by a male boss. As well as all the regular crap like street harassment, manspreading etc. I'm happily married, and I have a couple of male friends, but I'm generally much more comfortable and happy in the company of other women.

Now, perhaps I've been unlucky, and I need to just get over all of this. I'm entirely happy to be told this! And I'm happy to be told that this isn't normal, and I should seek help for this too.

But I wonder if other women feel the same, and that this is actually a rational response to the experiences which I've had?

“So any man who believes and supports feminist principles is waiving a red flag? ”
No. A man saying he is a feminist is a red flag in the early stages of dating. A man behaving like a feminist is a rare and wonderful thing.

And you might not express your views overtly to your sons but are you sure that they don't pick up on your attitudes?
I've explained why positive messaging from a parent can get drowned out, but you imply negative messaging somehow doesn't?
If I had sons and subjected them to a constant drip drip drip of telling them men are all bad would that ruin their lives? Probably not. It'd ruin their relationship with me, I should imagine.
I don't think there are many women who spend all their time telling their sons how awful men are so I don't think it's the widespread problem you have painted it as.

What is he doing to make sure your son is a decent man?

We've made sure my son is a decent man.

We've made sure our daughter is a decent woman.

More to the point we've made sure that they are both decent human beings.

How? By showing them what that looks like. By teaching them not to judge, to be tolerant, to show kindness, to give and not look for recognition, to treat everyone as you would want to be treated, to put others before yourself.

We've certainly not taught them that men are the enemy, that they can't be trusted, that they are inherently bad.

"We've certainly not taught them that men are the enemy, that they can't be trusted, that they are inherently bad."

You think anyone else here has?

No. A man saying he is a feminist is a red flag in the early stages of dating

You didn't say that. You said your daughter says that any man saying he is a feminist is a red flag.

Where's the "in the early stages of dating" come from suddenly?

The men in my life are wonderful
Likewise, mostly. But it's not relevant. Most men aren't wonderful. And posters are allowed one measly thread to talk about it, surely?

AssassinatedBeauty

Err, yes, given the views expressed.

And posters are allowed one measly thread to talk about it, surely?

Absolutely not! There will be no discussion of men as a group and the issues with their behavior, because class analysis is forbidden.

Sorry-the early stages of dating was left over from a post I deleted. But when a man describes himself as a feminist it is definitely a red flag until he has shown himself by what he actually.says and does to be one.

I must admit that when I saw this thread this morning I didn't open it on the assumption that it would get swamped by NAMALT apologists

I've explained why positive messaging from a parent can get drowned out, but you imply negative messaging somehow doesn't?
If I had sons and subjected them to a constant drip drip drip of telling them men are all bad would that ruin their lives
Probably not.

Really? I think you are wrong. I think our views of ourselves are strongly influenced by the messages that we get at home, long before outside influences play a part.

Honestly Weetabix, you're oddly angry and insisting things that no one has said.

And for me, one of the characteristics of a decent man is an acknowledgement that many men, and masculine culture are a bit shit, and a commitment to do something about it.

I've found that the best way to have a productive discussion anyway is to not engage with the whataboutery, Bernard. I highly recommend it, makes forums a lot more enjoyable.

And posters are allowed one measly thread to talk about it, surely?

It's not just 1 thread though is it? It's repeated continuously.

Again if men are so terrible why do any of you enter into relationships with them?

AssassinatedBeauty

Have I? Like what?

NOT ALL FUCKING MEN ARE LIKE THAT

And breathe

To be fair I'm surprised that im the first person on the thread to say that

And for me, one of the characteristics of a decent man is an acknowledgement that many men, and masculine culture are a bit shit, and a commitment to do something about it.

I think that is completely different to the views expressed on here though.

If one dislikes a particular thread, or a particular sort of thread, there is this marvelous thing called the back arrow, and another one called the little x that you click to close a tab. This has been today's moment of Kittens Being Helpful.

You can only be fine with labelling all men if you are equally fine with labelling all women.

You are being naive. But I was starting to see where you were coming from. When you posted this to treat everyone as you would want to be treated, to put others before yourself. it was confirmed.

You are approaching this as thought the fight is fair. As thought we are equal and the hard work is done. You are approaching this as a woman....you don't like it when men stereotype us, so out of principle, you refuse to do it back.

But we aren't equal, and they aren't playing the game fairly. You are considering their feelings while they are weaponising yours against you.

You are hurting women with that stance, mainly because saying that men rape and kill isn't a stereotype when the figures show that the majority of those who rape and kill are men. We aren't stereotyping men, we are saying factually that the majority of rapists and killers are men.

The suffragettes turned to violence because they campaigned peacefully for years and got nowhere. Violence was the only language men understood so they had to play the game that was actually being played. Not the one they thought should be played.

I've found that the best way to have a productive discussion anyway is to not engage with the whataboutery

yes, the whataboutery is certainly boring

I must say that men who claim to be feminists make my skin crawl

Do you need some wine, Rufus?

That was in reply to the...if men are so terrible, post

The categories "men who are decent human beings who treat women with kindness and respect" and "men who loudly proclaim that they're feminists" have yet to overlap in my experience.

Last male feminist I bothered talking to banged on and on about how empowering the sex industry was and how all feminists should give it a go. Nah, mate.

Im not sure its going to help angry