I've realised that I just don't like men very much...

[SandAndSnow]

And I wanted to talk through it a bit, if that's ok. I hope this is the right place.

I'm sitting on a train next to a terrible man spreader so I'm feeling a bit raged at the moment, but it's also made me realise that I increasingly tend to treat men with caution and, if I'm honest, dislike.

I'm in my early thirties, have been sexually assaulted by 3 different boys/men, had a truly awful experience with a bullying (male) obstetrician, my father is an emotionally and at times physically abusive bully and I've been passed over for promotion in favour of a younger and less well qualified colleague by a male boss. As well as all the regular crap like street harassment, manspreading etc. I'm happily married, and I have a couple of male friends, but I'm generally much more comfortable and happy in the company of other women.

Now, perhaps I've been unlucky, and I need to just get over all of this. I'm entirely happy to be told this! And I'm happy to be told that this isn't normal, and I should seek help for this too.

But I wonder if other women feel the same, and that this is actually a rational response to the experiences which I've had?

You're saying that because you personally have never experienced any issues with men, then it doesn't happen to anyone else? No I did not say that. I have the utmost sympathy for women who have had terrible experiences with men. Actually during the meeting I described we discussed a particular man who we all know hit his wife and is a complete con man. In fact he conned my dear old DF. We all treat him with contempt.

Then I have no idea what the point of your sheep farming anecdote was or it's relevance to the thread.

FlyingOink

Of course it's not guaranteed that growing up hearing entirely negative messages will affect you as an adult but I would bet pretty good money on it.

And you might not express your views overtly to your sons but are you sure that they don't pick up on your attitudes?

Women who get on like Weetabix (who may or may not be a woman I don't know) excusing men at every turn, only ever seeing how hard it is for the men, a whole lot of whataboutery....they are doing so much damage to women. And for what? Men are laughing at them behind their backs, for being so damn loyal. Men know they have it good and that the turkeys that vote for Christmas will fight on their behalf.

Women in developed countries are living the lives they have because other women fought for the rights we so tentatively hold on to. But they would sell them up the river in a heartbeat if it proved their loyalty to the males.

Sickening.

I also think that those decent men aren't necessarily given a chance.

Society is tripping over itself to give men all the chances...and if there is a man who isn't getting a fair shot, it is other men keeping him down, NOT women.

“However, men are raised to be the tough guy, to bury their feelings, to be in charge and when it all goes to pot it's their fault because they should overcome socialisation?”

Many women are trying very hard to overcome their socialisation. I see very little evidence that men in general are trying to overcome theirs......

Or to consider ways of not passing on their socialisation to their sons.

Women who get on like Weetabix (who may or may not be a woman I don't know)

Oh, it's only taken 8 pages for the same old same old to come up.

I am a woman.

I'm married to a lovely man and am a proud mum to both a son and a daughter.

I don't want to make excuses for men but equally I can't abide these posts. As someone else mentioned it makes women no better than mras who bang on about "women do this".

You must all live in a very different world to me. I've met lots of horrible men and women. I've met lots of really decent men and women. None of them could make me decide that most men are this or most women are that.

Carry on believing what you believe. Guess what if you do? You'll never be proved wrong cos you'll never give anyone the chance to prove it.

What about the men, eh? They must be tirelessly defended at all times against the scourge of some women being a bit pissed off about their collective behavior. So that's you told, misandrist mummies!

Anyway, back to the OP. You don't need to get over being angry. Anger is an entirely rational response to being treated like shit by many members of a specific class of people, and it's not surprising if it results in your trust in said class being limited.

“I don't want to make excuses for men but equally I can't abide these posts“

So why do you think men in general are not doing more to address, for example, male violence?

Many women are trying very hard to overcome their socialisation. I see very little evidence that men in general are trying to overcome theirs......

Really? My husband never knew his dad. His stepfather beat his mum. My husband is a loving father and husband (he's a better parent than me). I'd say he's doing an excellent job of overcoming socialisation and why? Because his mum did an amazing job of raising him and of teaching him that men can be great and have great qualities and don't have to turn out as bullies and abusers.

Our feminist ally husbands and sons are most likely just as bad as the others, let's not kid ourselves.

“I'd say he's doing an excellent job of overcoming socialisation”

Brilliant. How do we roll that out to society at large?

Well I was playing a video game with my 6 year old co-operatively and I happened to be playing a female character and he questioned why. I asked him what’s wrong with that she’s cool and he replied that girls aren’t as good. So that prompted a long discussion why that was bs, (and we’d had a similar convo about Islam months earlier). So believe me I’m doing my best to ensure to ensure my boy grows up treating people as individuals.

My young adult daughter says that a man telling her is a feminist is a real red flag......

Meaning what? There are no decent men?

Is that really what you think of your sons?

Why do any of you bother then? Why bother having children if there's a 50/50 chance of you producing such an abhorrence?

And why bother having relationships with men at all given that's how you feel? It isn't compulsory is it? Surely it's better to remain single than to lower yourself that much as to have a relationship with one of these terrible men?

I’d be inclined to agree with her Bertrand.

As a teen I came to the conclusion that men as a group on the whole were not nice.
War
Rape
Paedophilia
Violence

Mostly men.

Ok I don't know anybody who has caused or even participated in a war, or raped someone, or abused children, or cut off the arm of child. But it's MEN who do these things.

I don't want to make excuses for men

Then don't. Please don't. There is no excuse. And they will go on being fine in a society that is set up for them.

Acknowledging that men are shit and that women bear the brunt of it does not liken you to an MRA for the one simple reason that women are the oppressed sex, and calling out oppression is not the same as perpetuating it. In trying to not be like a MRA you are simply furthering their cause.

sheepsheep

Do you have sons?

Acknowledging that men are shit and that women bear the brunt of it does not liken you to an MRA

Yes it does because that statement says that because some men are then all men are. Just as an mra will say because some women are then all women are.

You can only be fine with labelling all men if you are equally fine with labelling all women.

Weetabix- how do we make sure that the next generation of men are like your husband? What is he doing to make sure your son is a decent man?

I don't think your outlook is healthy. Understandable but not good. If you continue to see men in that way , that is all you will see. I don't know how you stop but it keeps occurring in your life.

The men in my life are wonderful , my husband and my father in law. My father was difficult but not over confident, more under-confident and insecure.

Yes, yes, NAMALT... we all know that NAMALT... as has been said before on this thread and every time anyone ever tries to discuss this. The point is that it is too many, and that sometimes women like the OP get weary of it.

My young adult daughter says that a man telling her is a feminist is a real red flag......

So any man who believes and supports feminist principles is waiving a red flag? Then no matter what men do to address inequalities it doesn't matter does it? Because nothing will ever be enough for you so nothing will ever change.

You don't want change so you must enjoy being where you are now.

No. A man that makes a big deal of saying that he's a feminist is a red flag... always better to look at the actual behaviour and actions rather than the words.

The problem is that unless individual men, however nice, are doing everything they can to change the way that men as a group behave they they are in some ways being a bit shit, surely?