I've realised that I just don't like men very much...

[SandAndSnow]

And I wanted to talk through it a bit, if that's ok. I hope this is the right place.

I'm sitting on a train next to a terrible man spreader so I'm feeling a bit raged at the moment, but it's also made me realise that I increasingly tend to treat men with caution and, if I'm honest, dislike.

I'm in my early thirties, have been sexually assaulted by 3 different boys/men, had a truly awful experience with a bullying (male) obstetrician, my father is an emotionally and at times physically abusive bully and I've been passed over for promotion in favour of a younger and less well qualified colleague by a male boss. As well as all the regular crap like street harassment, manspreading etc. I'm happily married, and I have a couple of male friends, but I'm generally much more comfortable and happy in the company of other women.

Now, perhaps I've been unlucky, and I need to just get over all of this. I'm entirely happy to be told this! And I'm happy to be told that this isn't normal, and I should seek help for this too.

But I wonder if other women feel the same, and that this is actually a rational response to the experiences which I've had?

Men seem to get into a right tizzy with things that don't include them. Take the old breakfast cereal joke on here. It really seemed to get up people's noses.
Interesting thread. I have to say that I always thought I was fairly evenly jaundiced about both sexes - just noted the power imbalance and what effect it had .
The last year or so has changed me though. I am so sick of TRAs and the beardy twats who support them that my patience has worn away completely. I have a mostly good man, but if anything happens to him, I'm staying on my own.

I was more shooting for sympathy and empathy sheep, sorry if I missed the mark.

This really must depend on past experiences because I honestly don't see what you all see.

I have met men and women who are horrible. But I can't say that I don't know any nice men or women. I know lots of both.

As for the not stepping out of a man's way - are men really worse than women? Ever been barged into by a woman pushing a pram?

How can you raise a son if you honestly feel that there are no decent men? Who will your sons look to as a male role model?

My ex was very nice, charmed everyone, has a job that helps people. Parents loved him. I wanted nice, I wasn't trying for a bad boy.

Except he wasn't actually nice at all. He used to laugh about how he could have been done for false advertising once I was in deep and he let the real self show.

This is not about choosing better and only letting the nice ones close next time, this is about a risk assessment. After weighing evidence of years of experience, is it worth the risk? Personally I say no.

Fair enough Opal, there are some very adept manipulators out there. Whatever you choose in the future I wish you smoother waters and brighter days.

but perhaps taking some space away from men and fostering realisations that no-one deserves to be treated this way can only be a good thing.

This is a logical conclusion to the problem. But in reality it is next to impossible for so many women. Pretty much from birth women are socialised into prioritising "getting a man". It is everywhere. In movies, in songs, on TV, in society. Girls are told that if a boy is mean it is because he likes you. All those films about the girl finally getting the guy set girls and women up to believe that love is about fairytales and grand gestures rather than a mutual respect and doing the dishes without being asked.

Walking against the tide of that socialisation, especially for women who grew up with aggression and chaos as normal, is incredibly difficult.

Not to mention the fact that asking women to expect better, or pick more wisely doesn't actually fix the problem, which is that males need to be better.

So you portray women as the victims of socialisation but not men?

Who does this argument work?

As women we are raised to be nice, to pick the bad guy, to believe in fairytales so it's not our fault when it all goes to pot because - socialisation.

However, men are raised to be the tough guy, to bury their feelings, to be in charge and when it all goes to pot it's their fault because they should overcome socialisation?

Well I think you are onto something right there sheep. I agree this having to have a man as if this defines you as a person is some grade A bull right there.

I know you sniped at my being an authority which is fair enough I do tend to project that, but really I am only an authority on my own thoughts which are as prone to error as the next person.

So take this as it resonates or not, but I do think women could in general do with a little more confidence and self esteem relative to men.

Okay folks -- How long are we supposed to wait? How long before the nice men who obviously predominate according to some realise that 'the patriarchy' isn't good for us or them? Until all the decent men raised by feminists mothers and career women and all that finally get up and put the effort in and sort this stuff out? Or at least join us in sorting it out? Have they not had enough time yet, were they too traumatized by that nasty lady who threw their mostly unused parking ticket in the drain rather than let them use it?

Or is it perhaps time to realise that this wasn't all an accident, and that you won't get rid of thousands of years of social structures by waiting for those who benefit from it to decide to change......
Whilst the new technologies and spread of porn is actually making things worse as far as I can see, with the additional advantage that some are being quite successful in managing to make it all our fault again (probably by us not being nice enough).

I think that there are lots of decent men out there.

I also think that those decent men aren't necessarily given a chance.

I also think that if you are raised against a background of "all men are terrible, I hate all men" that your chances of growing up to be a decent man are slim, in the same way as a girl being brought up hearing " all women are terrible, I hate all women" aren't going to have a great opinion of themselves.

I also think that those decent men aren't necessarily given a chance.
Hahahaha classic! The poor decent men aren't given a chance because of one Mumsnet thread. Poor souls.

How can you raise a son if you honestly feel that there are no decent men? Who will your sons look to as a male role model?

I am a single parent, my son was not wanted by his dad and has only met him once as a baby. Once. My dad is dead. My grandfather has been dead many years, my son's other grandfather has never met him. There are no men in my life at all as I'm NC with the rest of my family. One brother I see maybe 3 times a year briefly. I wouldn't class him as in my life. Not sure where I'm supposed to magic up some male role models for him @Weetabixandshreddies.

Bold fail there sorry. Obviously Weetabixandshreddies thinks I am going to turn my son into something bad because I don't trust men and know no decent ones I didn't say there aren't any decent ones. I've just never met one. I like men, had lots of male friends. My best friends in life have been men. Until they showed they were not the people I thought them to be.

"I also think that those decent men aren't necessarily given a chance." - who by? And how does this manifest itself?

"all men are terrible, I hate all men" - do you really think that any of the women posting here say anything at all like this to any of their children? Not that anyone thinks all men are terrible, just too many.

I also think that if you are raised against a background of "all men are terrible, I hate all men" that your chances of growing up to be a decent man are slim
So if you are black and grow up in a racist environment you have no chance of being decent?
If you're gay and grow up in a homophobic family?
If you just have a terrible childhood - and get told how worthless you are on a regular basis - you have a "slim chance" of being a decent adult?

Honestly, listen to yourself.

Right. I'm a farmer and my shepherd is female. On Sunday we had an inspection for QMS. The inspector was a man. We passed the inspection with flying colours. There was no patronising, mansplaining or whatever shite you talk about on here. The only thing that counted was the quality of our animal husbandry and our paper work. Right enough we all had connections and knew everybody in the wider community. Respect where respect is due should be the motto.

@Weetabixandshreddies - but over hundreds of years, men have socialised both males and females to fit into the societies men have wanted; ones where men are the top dogs, men own the property and get the best work, where women are kept down for their biology, instead of being worshipped for being able to create a human being inside them. (Yes I know men play a part!). Obviously women are more equal in many ways now, but (many) men seem to hate that, and want women back in our place, hence laziness around the house, domestic abuse, violent porn, absent fathers and TRA / MRA.
Don't blame women for the way men are socialised. Why don't men just step up at home and in fatherhood, for one example? What are they waiting for?

@derxa what? So because you've never experienced any issues, no one else has? Or it's their own fault somehow?

I certainly don’t say ‘all men are terrible’ To my son. I don’t think all men are terrible. I think in many ways they are victims of patriarchy - but victims who benefit more and also keep the system going.

I’m perfectly capable of having a negative view of men’s behaviour in general and of not telling my son he’s going to be a horrible human being.

I am ‘lucky’ in that my husband does 50% housework and more wife work than most men and that he doesn’t talk over women etc. When I met him 20 odd years ago I thought he was pretty good, now I think he is very unusual as I’ve seen other friend’s husbands’ behaviour, especially after children. If anything happened to him I don’t think I’d try to find anyone else. I also have a contingency plan (finances etc) because you just never know, even he may be like that.

I honestly think if girls were allowed to live their lives with as little regard for others as boys have then both sexes would act similarly.
If you've ever been anywhere where there is an upper class and an underclass (thinking abroad in particular) you'll see this kind of thing play out, where street people become invisible to moneyed people who are otherwise not bad or cruel people. I think most men see (or rather, don't see) women in the same way. Just background noise.

In the UK you see it with homeless people being ignored, it's not to the same extent as in countries with a huge divide between rich and poor.

Unfortunately for every conscientious mother impressing upon her son the importance of treating women as humans, there are a hundred other influences imploring him to make use of his birthright, from friends, media, and porn to the female socialisation of his girlfriend being passive in the hope of keeping him. It's a hard sell, and easily ignored.
If men were to back up his mother's words he'd believe it more. Sad but true.
Plus, what's in it for him? He only needs to do the minimum. If he doesn't rape or hit any women he's doing better than many men. If he takes two weeks' paternity and puts a few baby selfies on social media he's doing better than many men. The bar is set so low, he can feel proud of himself for having put in little effort. So why go over the top, for no extra cheers?

FlyingOink

YES.

And this is so sad.

Assassinated I can honestly say no. I run a business in 'man's world' but actually I've never felt more respected.

I don't hate men.
But after more than one abusive ex, and some other bad experiences, I am wary of men I don't know.
I am wary of having a new man in my life, my heart, my bed, my DCs lives etc.
I am not sure I will ever trust a man in a relationship, as a friend or partner, fully ever again.
And that makes me sad. It makes me sad for my daughter and it makes me sad for my son. I hope I can raise them both to question it. I hope she won't settle for an abusive/misogynistic/weak man. And I hope he never becomes one. I hope they are both equal, caring, loving, considerate partners some day.

Oh brinkpink my exP was just like yours. It was hideous. I hadn’t expected it and tried everything to get him to take on domestic responsibility, but he wouldn’t. He just would not do anything he found boring. He refused to concentrate for 5 seconds on anything outside his immediate interests. I left him because I was fed up of being exhausted, plus he turned out to be violent, porn addled, and drunk most of his spare time, ho hum, what a charmer. Now I have close male friends, and as friends I love them, dearly: they are kind, sensible, funny, honest, reliable and always there for me. But I would never again get sexually or romantically involved with a man, because although they may be great as friends, my experience is that as partners they are exploitative and brutal and lazy. It’s a shame.

Sorry, @derxa, I'm not following you. You're saying that because you personally have never experienced any issues with men, then it doesn't happen to anyone else?