I've realised that I just don't like men very much...

[SandAndSnow]

And I wanted to talk through it a bit, if that's ok. I hope this is the right place.

I'm sitting on a train next to a terrible man spreader so I'm feeling a bit raged at the moment, but it's also made me realise that I increasingly tend to treat men with caution and, if I'm honest, dislike.

I'm in my early thirties, have been sexually assaulted by 3 different boys/men, had a truly awful experience with a bullying (male) obstetrician, my father is an emotionally and at times physically abusive bully and I've been passed over for promotion in favour of a younger and less well qualified colleague by a male boss. As well as all the regular crap like street harassment, manspreading etc. I'm happily married, and I have a couple of male friends, but I'm generally much more comfortable and happy in the company of other women.

Now, perhaps I've been unlucky, and I need to just get over all of this. I'm entirely happy to be told this! And I'm happy to be told that this isn't normal, and I should seek help for this too.

But I wonder if other women feel the same, and that this is actually a rational response to the experiences which I've had?

Well they are disproportionately imprisoned for it, especially in the US.

Yes the US prison system has a real issue with racism and the incarceration of black men, especially since the prison system became more of a private business model.

I don’t see this as relevant to what we are discussing though. Unless of course you’re implying that women have some kind of systemic power that they use over men, and the fact that men commit 96% of violent crime is actually a false representation of the truth?

AngryAttackKittens

That's a different argument. But another example would be the infamous Trump Muslim ban. This was justified as a ban on people coming from countries which are violent. Why would you want men who are violent anyway, but not only that men from countries with extreme levels of brutal violence ? Surely the ban was right according to your argument which is to base your own behaviour on an analysis of potential threat ?

The equivalent would be a person from a BAME community.

Say this person has been subject to lifelong racism and violent abuse from white people.

Is this person allowed to come to the conclusion that they don't really like white people ,as a group?

Would it be acceptable for this person to prefer to seek company from their own community?

I am white, I would not take that conclusion as an affront to me, or ignore the facts to start the call of NAWPALT.

The whole group are letting that man think that what he did was ok, whether by their action or inaction

The women did do something. They cut the man out of their lives and supported the woman.
They listened to what she needed and responded appropriately.
She didn’t want the police involved.

They didn’t pull him off her because they were smaller than him and the men had done it already.

The point is that the men thought that by acting out at the time they had done their bit, whereas the woman cut him out forever.

I’m not happy at all by my husbands reaction, where have I said I am? We have had many arguments about it, as have most of the couples in the friendship group.

The women weren’t passive, you have totally projected that onto the situation.

That's a different argument. But another example would be the infamous Trump Muslim ban. This was justified as a ban on people coming from countries which are violent.

It’s not like that at all.
We aren’t banning men. We are just saying we don’t really wanna hang out with them much.

Men are not a marginalised community seeking asylum from a war torn country are they?

Ah, I see that Sheelala is another one who's having trouble grasping the concept that she's talking to more than one person.

We aren’t banning men.

Who knew when I went to sleep last night that I'd wake up President of the Unites States? I'm a bit confused as to where all this hair on my head came from...

“Well they are disproportionately imprisoned for it, especially in the US.”
Not nexessarily the same thing. We can go off at a tangent about racism and poverty and their impact on prison populations if you like.....

Opal

No I wouldn't be offended. But I don't think men as a group are offended by you not wanting sex anymore either ?

I love you and all, Bertrand, but do you really think it's wise to introduce class to a conversation in which people are struggling with the idea that race has an impact on sentencing? Baby steps, etc.

How about a thought experiment? This one’s mainly for you, weetabix.

Imagine travelling home late at night in the days of old fashioned compartment trains. There are two compartments-one with a single man in it and one with a single woman. Which are you going to join for your hour long journey?

Would it be acceptable for this person to prefer to seek company from their own community?

Apparently not if the person was a white male.

You may be underestimating my womanly charms there sheelala.

Who was talking about sex?

My point was whether it's acceptable to profile and avoid a group that has systematically treated you badly.

but do you really think it's wise to introduce class to a conversation in which people are struggling with the idea that race has an impact on sentencing

Ah. Or you could have said that you don't think these particular stastics are valid because of racism. That would have been perfectly fine instead of assuming that I don't think that.

My point was whether it's acceptable to profile and avoid a group that has systematically treated you badly.

And my answer is no, it isn't.

Why?

The women weren’t passive, you have totally projected that onto the situation.

You still socialise with this man and with the men that allow him to think it's ok don't you? That is the passivity I am talking about, not on the night in question.

Now BertrandRussell asking me directly a question is controlling behaviour according to AAK but I will answer.

I would get into whatever carriage happened to be closer to me. If that were the one with the man in, no problem. It probably wouldn't even register.

I'm sorry I read unacceptable. I mean it is acceptable. Fail.

but this is all madness.

Men are more violent than women.
And women should have the right to not put themselves in danger.

I’ve just watched the Ted Bundy tapes. Not all men are serial killers but some are!

Not getting into a car with a strange man is really good advice. Avoiding situations where you are alone with a strange man is just safeguarding and quite frankly I couldn’t give a fuck if some men are offended by it.

Who was talking about sex?

I had assumed that not hanging out with or speaking to men would make having sex with them a problem.

Everyone has the right to avoid danger the best way they see fit, I was trying to highlight that to take another statistic (although you may question it) Asian men are significantly more likely to be part of so called grooming gangs. Does this justify white men (and women) avoiding them and keeping their children away from them ? Is the measure here that you need direct experience of the danger to act upon it ?

You still socialise with this man and with the men that allow him to think it's ok don't you?

No I don’t socialise with him. I have said repeatedly that none of the girls do. I occasionally socialise with the other men but the women have actually split off front be men and just tend to socialise with each other now. I have made my feelings about the matter very clear to my husband, and though he agrees and he has pretty much all but stopped seeing them he does sometimes see him when they go out in a big circle.

I’m a bit confused wheet because on one hand you’re saying we should cut out all men who have either been a misogynist or hung out with one, and on the other you’re saying we shouldn’t want to not hang out with men.

Looking at the stats if we cut out every single man who’d hung out with a man who’d perpetuated male violence against a woman you’d have to not speak to any man.

Where on earth are you getting your stats sheel ? Britain first?

Asian men are not more likely to be a peadophile than a white man.

This is very like the MN dog threads.

Some people have had a bad (or indeed very minor) experience with a dog and become evangelical in their hatred of all dogs. It's no use people saying that some dogs are indeed dangerous, and that it is quite right to be wary of unknown dogs, still people declare unequivocally that all dogs are nasty coiled springs just waiting to attack.

I have come across many horrible men in my life, and I am indeed very wary when out and about alone at night or in quiet places. BUT do I think every single male I meet is bad? That's preposterous. In the same way as some people recoil from my soppy golden retriever minding his own business, tarring him with the same brush as a snarling pit bull.

Britain first ? No it was an article in the independent actually, and note i said grooming gangs.