I've realised that I just don't like men very much...

[SandAndSnow]

And I wanted to talk through it a bit, if that's ok. I hope this is the right place.

I'm sitting on a train next to a terrible man spreader so I'm feeling a bit raged at the moment, but it's also made me realise that I increasingly tend to treat men with caution and, if I'm honest, dislike.

I'm in my early thirties, have been sexually assaulted by 3 different boys/men, had a truly awful experience with a bullying (male) obstetrician, my father is an emotionally and at times physically abusive bully and I've been passed over for promotion in favour of a younger and less well qualified colleague by a male boss. As well as all the regular crap like street harassment, manspreading etc. I'm happily married, and I have a couple of male friends, but I'm generally much more comfortable and happy in the company of other women.

Now, perhaps I've been unlucky, and I need to just get over all of this. I'm entirely happy to be told this! And I'm happy to be told that this isn't normal, and I should seek help for this too.

But I wonder if other women feel the same, and that this is actually a rational response to the experiences which I've had?

We are all shaped by our experiences. I've been lucky with men in that all the ones I have shagged (not that there are that many) were at least polite. The ones I was and am in a relationship with I consider it a privilege to have met.

I've been cat called and groped in nightclubs but this was years ago and I had friends who would go and pinch men's arses for a laugh. And they all did laugh.

I don't really see a problem with not liking men if your experiences have been terrible, and would say avoiding them is for the best.

It must be difficult to have sons and have these thoughts I appreciate, my worry would be that they would grow up thinking women don't like men and only are interested in them they are either very attractive or can provide for them. There are sadly many people telling boys this these days.

I don't think some women saying they no longer have any interest in men or having sex with them will make much difference though.

“Does it get any more interesting, or is it just another hundred rounds of "don't ever blame men for anything, women are shit too, also how dare you"? Cause that's not very interesting.”
I posted My List again. I was told that men do all that already. So that’s all right then.

I posted My List again. I was told that men do all that already. So that’s all right then.

Ime many men do already do what is on your list. You are sarcastic about that.

Are you comfortable with us assuming that the men in your life don't do those things, for no other reason than they happened to be born male?

“Are you comfortable with us assuming that the men in your life don't do those things, for no other reason than they happened to be born male?”
You can make whatever assumptions about the men in my life you like! This is not about individuals. It is about men as a class. If the number of men doing all the things on my list had reached a tipping point we would be living in a very different society than the one we live in.

But that class is made up of individuals.

I loved your list Bertrand and I’ve copied it for my young teenaged sons.

Thank you .

It’s a shame that the Ops thread has been derailed. Pesky women talking about their feelings again, shouldn’t be allowed.

I wonder what Bunbury would say about it.

my worry would be that they would grow up thinking women don't like men and only are interested in them they are either very attractive or can provide for them. There are sadly many people telling boys this these days.

That’s how girls grow up feeling already. If you swap out ‘provide’ for ‘bear children’.

But yes, let’s make it all about men’s feelings.

Exactly, Twitter.

WH1SPERS

Do you have daughters? If so, what list do you give them as rules on how to behave?

If you don't have daughters what list would you suggest that we give to our daughters?

I was talking to teenage ds about my List last night, and he reckons that Number 2 is the most importanr. For those of you who have not committed it to memory or embroidered it on a handy cushion it is “Challenge sexist/ misogynist/violent talk and behaviour every time they see it and wherever they see it”

And the rest?

I agree with your DS, Bertrand. Men listen more when it comes from another man, especially one whose good opinion of them they're invested in maintaining.

I think this is a really interesting topic.

When I was younger I was very much a ‘I just get on better with boys’ kind of girl.
But now I’m older I find the people I gravitate towards most are women.
Of course there are men I love and there are wonderful inspiring men out there, but I am continually amazed by the strength and compassion that I get from my female friends.
I have a soft spot for people who roll their sleeves up against adversity and have a wicked (but kind) sense of humour and I have found that there are more women like that than men.
I don’t hate men at all but I can’t say there are many men in my life now that I have much time for.

As I get older, I find I’m less tolerant of entitled, big-headed, “let me talk over your knowledge with my confidence” type people in general. They can be from either sex, but are more than likely male. I think as a society we are guilty of breeding entitled little princes. I see it already with my 2yo DD - sometimes she’s pushed off the slide by a girl, but 90% of the time it’s a boy and accompanied by a parent who dismisses it with “boys are just such bruisers aren’t they”

I find the stereotypes expressed here quite bizarre.

I've known, and still do, lovely men and women. All are different, have different strengths and vulnerabilities and different personalities. I could not say "all of my female friends have this in common" and the same for my male friends.

I've also known some horrible men and women. Equally horrible. I have been very very lucky in that I've only had one crime committed against me in 50 years (touch wood) and that was when we were burgled - by a woman.

If I witness any behaviour that I disagree with I call people out on it - both men and women.

I've raised by my son and daughter to treat people decently and to call others out when they are mistreating someone else. I've also taught both of them to treat everyone equally and be an equal partner in relationships.

That’s how girls grow up feeling already.

Well I didn't grow up feeling that way. Look if that's what you think just avoid men, it's no biggie. There's no point in being angry that all women don't share your animosity towards men. Try to encourage women to avoid men all you want, it won't make a lot of difference, there are many talented and wonderful men out there just as there are women, if you can't see this I feel a bit sorry for you to be honest

My husbands friendship group is an interesting case about men sticking up for men.

They used to be a big mixed sex friendship group where everyone did everything together and there was one WhatsApp group for everyone.

Then it turned out one of the men had been beating up his girlfriend. The consensus was that this man was to be thrown from the group.
However what ended up happening is the boys created a private splinter group that included the man. This was to ‘not upset the girls’.

Then it turned out one of the men had been visiting prostitutes behind his girlfriends back, and again the women’s attitude was ‘I don’t want that man anywhere near us’ so the men just started doing things separate from the women.

This was the first New Year’s Eve in about 15 years where they didn’t have a big party all together, they had separate parties for ‘the lads’ and ‘lasses’.

When you talk to the boys as well it’s very much the attitude ‘the women don’t want us to hang out with our friend’ rather than ‘my friends misogynist and reprehensible behaviour has ruined the faith people had in them’.

And these are liberal, artsy people. They would all say sexism isn’t a problem for them.

Weetabix- why is 96% of violent crime committed by men?

@BertrandRussell because women aren't raising them right like Weetabixandshreddies obviously. If we all just raised our boys right society would be an equal and violence free place

CalvinsMum What a heartwarming tale of male solidarity.

Sadly that is always my main fear and distrust of men that I know, that they may talk the talk (in front of women) but when push comes to shove, will they walk the walk? And there are very few that I would trust to walk the walk when it was their mate who was the rapist / woman beater / john.

Calvinsmam
Is it maybe the case the guy told them his girlfriend made it up because she is out to get him ? If not then it is shocking they don't mind hanging out with a confessed women batterer.

PerverseConverse
Oh I'm sorry. I thought that was what BertrandRussell was trying to do? To educate her son and raise him to be a decent man? Funny how when they do it It's great 3 cheers all round. When I do it It's sarcasm and derision and "oh so it's a woman's job to raise better men then is it?"

CalvinsMum What a heartwarming tale of male solidarity.

I know, I was really shocked by it.
Especially as up until that point it had always been that the women and men were just as much friends with each other, it wasn’t like it was a group of girl friends and a group of boy friends who just happened to hang out together. So when he beat up his girlfriend it wasn’t a generic ‘girlfriend’ who they didn’t know, but actually their friend who they had known for over 15 years.

It's interesting that anecdotes about men behaving badly are lapped up as further supporting evidence, whereas anecdotes about men being supportive, or women behaving badly are dismissed as "not my Nigel" or "whataboutery".