I've realised that I just don't like men very much...

[SandAndSnow]

And I wanted to talk through it a bit, if that's ok. I hope this is the right place.

I'm sitting on a train next to a terrible man spreader so I'm feeling a bit raged at the moment, but it's also made me realise that I increasingly tend to treat men with caution and, if I'm honest, dislike.

I'm in my early thirties, have been sexually assaulted by 3 different boys/men, had a truly awful experience with a bullying (male) obstetrician, my father is an emotionally and at times physically abusive bully and I've been passed over for promotion in favour of a younger and less well qualified colleague by a male boss. As well as all the regular crap like street harassment, manspreading etc. I'm happily married, and I have a couple of male friends, but I'm generally much more comfortable and happy in the company of other women.

Now, perhaps I've been unlucky, and I need to just get over all of this. I'm entirely happy to be told this! And I'm happy to be told that this isn't normal, and I should seek help for this too.

But I wonder if other women feel the same, and that this is actually a rational response to the experiences which I've had?

I mean why do you think those Japanese men people (NAMALT! mustn't assume) feel that they can behave that way

how do you think women on the Japanese metro feel when a man stands close to them

mustn't judge men as a class, that would be unfair, so every single time they have to regard that person as a super special individual?

So can women use class analysis to judge the risk of an individual standing close to them on the metro or not deydododatdodontdeydo ?

or do they have to be surprised each time they're groped?

Now who's doing the whataboutery?

when a man wants to sit next to me on a train, I ask him to go next to the window and I take the aisle seat, so I'm not trapped in a situation that's hard to get out of

sensible precaution based on class analysis or gross generalisation?

I'd hate to think I'm being unfair to men, so do let me know

Once I was sat next to a manspreader on the tube. His thigh was touching mine. Instead of recoiling like I usually would have, I thought ‘fuck him’ and I pressed my thigh hard back against his, all the time keeping my eyes on my Metro. I held it like that until it was so super awkward that he had to move away from me.

He knew what he was trying to do. And he knew that I knew. And neither of us said anything. And I got to enjoy my space in peace.

Bernard

Apologies, I didn't see that advice recommended to the OP there was a sarcastic reply about a nunnery.

I think society might become increasingly segregated anyway so I doubt women avoiding men is that big of a problem. There are supposed men's movements which avow having as little contact with women as humanly possible. Of course these people claim they are behaving rationally in response to an unfair society, bit I think that's obviously not true. However it's best these people do avoid women and it's best women whonhave concluded they don't like men, avoid men. So I think we agree

I'm not worried about being unfair to men.
Well maybe a little.
Like I said, this crap is all over the internet - women do this, women do that, don't you hate it when women?... etc.
If I can be bothered I argue against these men (and I also see some men arguing against these men).

Sheela, the MGTOW movement don't really want to avoid women, they're just angry they can't have women on their terms (they visit prostitutes foe example).
Women avoiding men isn't the same thing.

yes BUT, is knowing that men as a class commit the vast majority of sexual and violent offenses, and therefore being more wary of being near men I don't know a sensible precaution based on class analysis or gross generalisation?

enquiring minds need to know

Why have you introduced sexual and violent offenses?
I'm not arguing against you there.
You said it's only men that take up space on public transport, and when I disagreed, you brought up sexual assault.

deydododatdodontdeydo

They are certainly not the same, but their effect is which is that men resent women and vice versa...I kind of assumed that feminists avoided men generally anyway, it's not news surely ?

You said it's only men that take up space on public transport

in my view the rationale behind feeling you can initiate unwanted physical contact by pressing your leg against someone and invading their space is that same as the rationale behind those Japanese men groping women on the train. it's about not caring if you upset the other person.

You said it's only men that take up space on public transport

and my point is not about taking up space, it's about invading the space of others

Bernard, I do apologise, your first post was indeed about men invading your space, it was someone else referring to general spreading about and taking up space and being inconsiderate.
Sitting with legs wide apart or spreading bags about so someone can't use a seat is rude and inconsiderate and (in my opinion) not restricted to one sex. That's why I responded to your response to LouiseCollins28's post where you said that people who spread themselves out inconsiderately had a defining characteristic (male).
Deliberately invading someone else's space by pressing against you is a male thing, I fully agree.

no prob deydododatdodontdeydo

it's interesting to me how many posters say they can relate, but are also married to men

I wish I was a lesbian! I can't imagine dating a man ever again.

I'm thinking about moving home and every single safety aspect that needs consideration is about male behaviour. I've even had people say to me "don't you feel unsafe living without a man" - um, well, the threat comes from men in the first place.

someone who sexually harrassed me in one workplace regularly puts feminist messages on social media.

Does this groping on trains happen often to posters on here? I confess I have experienced it (when commuting by train) so I know it happens :-(

I had a guy and his mates stand next to me as I sat on a bus, and he had an erection. He and his mates thought it was hilarious when I moved over to the window seat and pulled my bag onto my lap. Funny fellas.

I don't go on public transport, I work in a woman only workplace, I chucked out my husband and I only really spend time at the moment with my kids so no groping in my life.

However, before that I have been groped at school, at home, at work, walking on pavement, in bars, in hospital etc etc.

I doubt the problem has gone away in the last couple of years.

I remember being groped at a party when I was about 14, and just feeling so bloody furious

I jumped up and shouted at the boy, who looked utterly puzzled. I can still see his face now 30 years later. that stupid expression of bafflement

My experience is that I've had far more negative experiences with women than men. Especially in the workplace. I have found male bosses to be far more "tell it how it is" which I actually prefer. I find a lot of women talk behind backs which I really don't like.
My ex-husband was a vile man but he'd have been vile if he was female. He was just vile full stop. He was an abuser but that wasn't gender-specific.
I'm far less comfortable with wealthy people as a rule. That may be seen as a bit unfair but I have my reasons.

I have grown up unsure of men. My brother being at the centre of it. It just grew from there. The physical violence. The broken nose. Black eyes.
His porn habit that has ruined his marriage.
His blatant hatred of women.
The neighbour who sexually assaulted me.
My male friend who was essentially a sleaze bag and hit on my very vulnerable friend.
The boy up the road who beat me up in front of my brother, who simply walked away.
The sexual predators that keep appearing.
The married men who hit on me.
The list just rolls on and on.
Dislike men?
I have more solid reasons to dislike them than trust them.
The posturing so many of them indulge in now amuses me and wonder if they really think any woman believes their act.
My DH who's career didn't skip a beat following the birth if our DD.
I rarely feel relaxed with men. I am simply waiting for the atmosphere to change. But as I get older, I am happier to make them uncomfortable, put them on the back foot whereas before I would want to placate as much as possible out of a sense of fear.
I could give a fuck anymore

I hope you don't mind me asking lola after all of that (which sound horrendous) how did you get married at all ?

My DH is an essentially gentle soul. He is deluded about but how much of an actual feminist he is but I feel physically safe with him. He had an abuse e father too, so in a way we have both suffered at the hands of men.
He understands the damage and if I think about it, doesn't know the half of it because I don't want to see "that look" on his face. He could never, ever understand it from my point of view. He would only see it as the outraged male. So. No point.

Yep I am with you. Even the 'good ones' let me down and are happy to sweep violence against women and girls under the carpet. I have decided not to date them anymore, since I am bi I don't want them anyway. I have been through it too, it is totally cool for us not to really like men that much and accept it as part of our processing what has happened to us and understanding the scale of the problem. I do however seek out good examples of men as it makes me feel hopeful, like people online who support women on Twitter for example. But happy to keep my distance