I've realised that I just don't like men very much...

[SandAndSnow]

And I wanted to talk through it a bit, if that's ok. I hope this is the right place.

I'm sitting on a train next to a terrible man spreader so I'm feeling a bit raged at the moment, but it's also made me realise that I increasingly tend to treat men with caution and, if I'm honest, dislike.

I'm in my early thirties, have been sexually assaulted by 3 different boys/men, had a truly awful experience with a bullying (male) obstetrician, my father is an emotionally and at times physically abusive bully and I've been passed over for promotion in favour of a younger and less well qualified colleague by a male boss. As well as all the regular crap like street harassment, manspreading etc. I'm happily married, and I have a couple of male friends, but I'm generally much more comfortable and happy in the company of other women.

Now, perhaps I've been unlucky, and I need to just get over all of this. I'm entirely happy to be told this! And I'm happy to be told that this isn't normal, and I should seek help for this too.

But I wonder if other women feel the same, and that this is actually a rational response to the experiences which I've had?

Sheelala

Agree. I would want neither a misogynist nor a misandryst teaching my children, or any children.

This podcast from Australian True Crime is interesting in light of the discussion. Sherele Moody is the founder of the Red Heart project, tracking the deaths of women and children.

She’s talking about the trolling, including death and rape threats she receives from men, when she writes, or talks, about male violence. That includes male violence perpetrated upon other men.
itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/australian-true-crime/id1217681421?mt=2&i=1000428795733

Understood, Sheelala. I’m not promising not to manifest anything, by the way, I certainly make no apologies for my feminism and distrust of the male class within the patriarchy.

Do explain. Are you saying that I'm a man?
No I wasn't. You have reading comprehension issues, I think. Try again.

There’s always homeschool for those who don’t want their children in contact with those who disagree with you. Just like the nunnery for me to pop off to.

You have reading comprehension issues, I think. Try again.

Oh nice!

But the "white knights" do exist.
It's a strange kind of interpretation to observe men "white knighting", to observe men deriding the white knights, then to conclude that men hate women because they shut down the white knights, while completely ignoring the fact that the "white knights" are also men, and they're on the side of women.

Oh sorry Bernard I can see why that was confusing. What I meant was there is no need to go into a nunnery in order to eschew personal relationships with men.

Opal
I am very worried about my daughter and my son having misogynistic teachers and getting sexist messages, of course. That doesn't mean I think it's healthy for boys to be educated by women who do not like men does it ?

There are plenty of women who don't have these opinions, I just think most parents of boys would feel the same way. Having prejudices is not a good look for teachers.

It's a strange kind of interpretation not really, unless you're trying to disprove the premise that all men are like that, which nobody has made

@ScipioAfricanus, thanks for the insight. I guess everyone has biases and part of being a professional is about being able to treat people equally in spite of those biases. Your point about trust is a an interesting one, would you say are you distrustful of roughly half of your class of students then?

FlyingOink, I completely agree with you about the shutting down. It's like the OP has started a reasonable thread to discuss a reasonable response to bad male behaviour, and it's been jumped on by a few people, who, for their own reasons want to repeatedly assert how big fans of men they are and squash any woman like the OP discussing why she isn't a big fan.

to conclude that men hate women because they shut down the white knights
And I didn't say this either

FloralBunting
It's quite exhausting really. I might come back to this later. I find it extraordinary that the thread has been marked for shutdown, I didn't think the OP was particularly controversial.

No. Because I distrust men as a class, not as individuals, and my pupils are individuals to me. They aren’t my friends, so my personal feelings of preferring the company of women doesn’t come into it. I’m not at a disadvantage in a power dynamic in the classroom (apart from occasional inappropriate overtures over the years which I take care to protect myself from) so I don’t distrust them the way I make sure I’m alert when walking home alone with a man walking behind me.

shee
I understand what you are saying. In a balanced world teachers would bring nothing into the classroom other than the wish to teach.
I am simply pointing out that the system swings so very far in the direction opposite to your concern.

Also what would the teacher who disliked men as a class do actually? Simply not favour the boys? In which case I don't think it would do them any harm and possibly some good.

I’ve decided that there are probably only a dozen decent men in the world.

So it’s not me, or any of the women here who are saying that as a class they generally distrust and dislike men who are insane.

Its the only sane response to living as a woman in a world where men’s privilege is absolute.

NAMALT - but enough.

There’s always homeschool for those who don’t want their children in contact with those who disagree with you.

That's rather a facetious reply. Disliking half the population because they have a penis is a little more than a difference of opinion. Again, I don't think you will find a lot of parents happy to have their sons taught by women who don't like men no matter how innocuous you think such views are. I don't think it's healthy.

If as an adult you have come to the conclusion that you dislike men then I don't have a problem with that. I think organising your personal life accordingly is sound advice.

the "white knights" are also men, and they're on the side of women.

I think the definition of white knight is someone who talks like that as a cynical ploy to try and get women to be romantically attracted to him.

There are definitely men who speak up for women and are genuine about it (therefore not white knights), but you can't really assume they are 'on the side of women' in general from this. It is easy for a man to speak up for women regarding something he doesn't do himself and is not invested in, but the same man might come at women arguing that another thing (that he does do) isn't sexist at all because he has a dichotomy - the bad men are the men who do things he doesn't do. He's a good man, so if he does something it's not bad. He's really just on his own side.

Men who critique and change their own behaviour are much rarer. I still have seen this so I don't think these men are non existent - I just think they will never fully get there.

It’s never been raised to me by a parent or employer, and therefore either they don’t mind my beliefs or, just very possibly, I’ve been able to teach in a way that means that my distrust of men as a class in the patriarchy has not actually been a problem.

I actually prefer to teach mixed sex groups, because they tend to be livelier and more varied, and I like as many of my male pupils as my female ones, so I won’t be changing how I run my professional or personal life.

I wonder if the saying “power corrupts “ is at the root of it. Men have more power in society some misuse it. Naomi someone wrote an interesting book called the power which switched to women overnight - trafficked women killed their captors etc was interesting read. I know many decent men but more decent women.

I knew dh was a keeper when I met his friends. Lots of them were women - women I would have chosen as friends. He sees women as people with equal value to men. Just does - doesn’t make a fuss about it.

And it’s disingenuous of you to imply I dislike men ‘because they have a penis’. The way that the class of men operates in society is a lot more complicated than that although I do believe that the reproductive and physical differences between men and women forms the basis for the oppression of women.

*Find a study that backs up your assertion that all women who kill men do it to escape abuse. That's the point I was questioning.

The fact is you can't because it isn't true.*

I’ve already posted a link citing tree separate academic, peer-reviewed studies that support the argument that overwhelmingly, the majority of women who kill do so to escape ongoing domestic abuse.

Okay, not every single woman who kills is escaping domestic abuse. But got Phyrric victory on that semantic point makes no material difference to the overarching issue.

*your phyrric victory

Opal

I'm not really sure what it would look like, but dislike for men as a class is rather an abstract concept. I would imagine boys would pick up on it though. We assume that most prejudices manifest themselves whether in a lack of interest in boys or their hobbies, sporting achievements, but I'm just speculating. Probably in the same sort of way a working class person might pick up on the general contempt for the culture they came from.

Scipio
Distrusting men is not the same as thing as disliking them. I don't see how parents would know that you don't trust men anyway, but my advice would be not to let the parents know especially the dads.

I still don't understand why in general women who do not like men should have or seek relationships with them. I think avoiding them totally, seems fine advice if you have these views.