I've realised that I just don't like men very much...

[SandAndSnow]

And I wanted to talk through it a bit, if that's ok. I hope this is the right place.

I'm sitting on a train next to a terrible man spreader so I'm feeling a bit raged at the moment, but it's also made me realise that I increasingly tend to treat men with caution and, if I'm honest, dislike.

I'm in my early thirties, have been sexually assaulted by 3 different boys/men, had a truly awful experience with a bullying (male) obstetrician, my father is an emotionally and at times physically abusive bully and I've been passed over for promotion in favour of a younger and less well qualified colleague by a male boss. As well as all the regular crap like street harassment, manspreading etc. I'm happily married, and I have a couple of male friends, but I'm generally much more comfortable and happy in the company of other women.

Now, perhaps I've been unlucky, and I need to just get over all of this. I'm entirely happy to be told this! And I'm happy to be told that this isn't normal, and I should seek help for this too.

But I wonder if other women feel the same, and that this is actually a rational response to the experiences which I've had?

But that's a much bigger topic, this thread is about how it is rational to dislike men. If you don't like men try to avoid them as much as possible surely ? And don't try and have relationships with them.

And you think it’s a 50:50 problem

Nope.
The leaps people make here is astounding.
"Not all men watch porn" =/= "only a few men watch porn".

“ I’m sorry Mr WeetabixandShreddies, we can’t treat your bowel cancer because Not All Men Have It, you are wrong to say its an issue”.

Yes. Of course I have to be a man right?

All men watch porn, really?
And then you reiterate you do really mean all.
OK then.

Exactly. But then you are castigated for pulling them up on a ridiculous exaggeration.

TwitterLovesMAPs

And now you back track? You were very clear in asserting that it was "all" not most with a few outliers.

And don't try and have relationships with them

which is precisely what a number of women on this thread have said they do

And you think it’s a 50:50 problem because Joanna Dennehey was a once-in-a-lifetime psychopath?

Show me any proof at all where I said, or even suggested, it is 5050?

You can't because I didn't.

I was solely pointing out that it was wrong to say that all women who murder men do it to escape abuse.

You said that. I asked if you really meant it.

Don't start lying about what I've said just cover up your own lies.

When I was twenty I used to believe that men were better company and bosses, they were simpler to understand etc. Worth noting that I was attractive and I believed that also to be a power.
Yeah I thought the same and only had male friends. I wasn't attractive to them though.

All men watch porn, really?
And then you reiterate you do really mean all.
OK then.
Yes all. Maybe some use magazines still, but all men use porn. All of them. Why wouldn't they? All men (unless they are physically unable to, I guess) masturbate and porn makes that easier, quicker and more exciting. It's available for free on your phone, any time, day or night. You don't need a telly, a computer, or a garden shed.
Perhaps twenty years ago there were men who didn't use any porn but I do not believe there are any now.
(Except those who are physically unable to view it or to masturbate or to move, etc.)
Sorry but I have in-depth conversations with men regularly, and all types, and all ages, married/single/cohabiting/whatever all use porn. Your Nigel uses porn. Your teenage son uses porn. The guy in the corner shop uses porn. Your boss uses porn. The bus driver uses porn. And you're very naïve if you think otherwise.

But how does not having a relationship with a man negatively affect your life ? If you don't like them ? I would have thought it was a good thing and something you should encourage other women to do ?

I can’t figure out how to link to the thread on my phone. But I read this thread on twitter yesterday, posted by an account called @thrupennybit and I thought it was a brilliant insight into the porn industry and it’s use:

“The sad truth behind why women get into p0rn and often seem to have no moral or rational boundaries about others and sex: it's a trauma response to abuse. Centering abuse in your life (to rewrite it) & even encouraging it for others are recognised psychological coping mechanisms.”

“It's no surprise that virtually all women in p0rn and prostitution are abuse victims. The mind seeks to control the narrative and re-establish control when it comes to trauma. It wants to repeat it until it can make it better, like a Groundhog Day of abuse and trauma.”

“Of course, that is not to suggest that women go into these fields of their own volition. Even when they do, how much choice is free choice when you've been trauma-groomed by abuse to only see yourself that way and been too damaged to cope with normality and the respect of others.”

“And I'm using 'women' because of character limit, but most females enter prostitution before 15. There's no choice or consent there. We have to understand that prostitution and pOrn are an abuse cycle: only possible by creating new victims to perpetuate a desire for new victims.”

“Let me be clear: every time someone watches porn they are complicit in the industrialised abuse and rape of women and girls. Even if, by a miracle, the woman is really enjoying it pauses to laugh pointedly for at least an hour the point stands. It is an abuse-creation industry.”

“And the reason why men become addicted to it? Also a trauma response. You're watching the abuse of women & girls. The mind registers trauma, even if you climax. It wants to rewrite trauma, compulses you to try again. It will push you to try harder - that's why tastes get darker.”

“Anyway, in case you've not guessed, I'm totally against all p0rn and prostitution. Not against the women doing those things.
Oh, and please no-one start with any bollocks about it being the only way some men get get off - boohoo, tough shit. No-one is owed the body of another.”

Here we go. This is what you said

A man murders a woman to exert the ultimate control over her and silence her forever.

A woman murders a man to escape his control.

I then asked

Are you referring to specific examples or are you saying that everytime a man murders a woman it is to exert control and every time a woman murders a man it is to escape his control?

And you replied

Both, actually.

TwitterLovesMAPs that was to you.

Now show me where you say there are outliers?

All men (unless they are physically unable to, I guess) masturbate

Nofap is a thing nowadays. So that statement that all physically able men masturbate is false, also saying that those who do ALL use porn is conjecture.

But I think this is beside the point, if you don't like men just avoid them. I don't see the big deal unless the dislike is upsetting to you.

Get thee to a nunnery, ladies! That will solve all our problems!

Yes all. Maybe some use magazines still, but all men use porn. All of them.
Really? You can evidence this claim can you? Categorically you can say that all men use it?

Do please show me the studies that prove this.

I was solely pointing out that it was wrong to say that all women who murder men do it to escape abuse.

But that’s just pure sophistry.

The empirical fact still stands that 96% of violent crime is committed by men. This is a conversation about men as a class being oppressors and violent offenders.

It is not a discussion about whether one female psychopath mitigates or negates 96% of violent crimes committed by men.

You’ve constructed this straw man to deflect from the issue at hand.

Weetabixandshreddies
I can personally concede that the female lawyer who used the knickers in court was wrong and should have done better. Even if she lost the case and her career suffered.
I can personally concede that not every murder of a man by a woman is to escape his control, although a massively disproportionate percentage are for that reason. Both personal concessions and not representative of anyone else.
What I can't understand is why you feel the need to tell women who are fed up with men, and who want to talk about why they feel that way, that they are wrong wrong wrong and NAMALT. What's the point? You haven't changed anyone's mind on anything. Point scoring is the tactic least likely to bring anyone over to your point of view.

But that’s just pure sophistry.
Rubbish. I've posted above what you said.

Don't try and back track. You posted a load of codswallop and don't like being called out on it.

I certainly wouldn't say that I dislike all men (indeed I love a good number of them very much), but I think that all men and most women are sexist to some degree. We are all drenched in sexism pretty much from birth and of course we take it in. Women have a better chance of eradicating internalised misogyny because in general we are obviously a lot more motivated to analyse these issues and identify the sexism all around us and in our own attitudes and behaviour. Most men are happy to ignore it because male supremacy obviously suits them quite nicely - often they are not even conscious of a lot of misogyny because they just don't care enough to think about it.

The best men are just sexist in an unthinking, selfish sort of way. They can spot the most obvious examples by themselves and sometimes if you point specific things out to them they will sort of get it. But I have never met a man who didn't have some kind of issue with sexism. For one thing, the vast majority watch porn and sexually objectify women. I don't live a separatist life, as a heterosexual woman in a relationship (and I have a son) but I don't think my Nigels are that special.

Obviously I consider DP to be a good man, otherwise I wouldn't be with him, but he'll always have blind spots and he will never place the same importance on the liberation of women as I do. DS is still just 1. I love him to bits and certainly I will do my level best to instill respect for women in him, but I'm under no illusions that I have the power to raise a boy free of sexism. Most mothers try to raise sons who are at least decent - if we had this much power over our sons the problem would be over by now.

FlyingOink
I honestly don't think all men use porn, and it's not about "Not my Nigel".
There are men who campaign against porn, who call other men out for porn use (and prostitution) use.
They can be seen online - twitter, facebook comments, as I mentioned earlier.
True, it could all be a facade - they could be hypocritically watching porn while overtly castigating it.

No, you've been caught making absolute statements that are factually incorrect.
Well done @Weetabixandshreddies

and IMO, men are not a class in the sense of 'social class', class is class, sex is sex, gender is gender.

Get thee to a nunnery, ladies! That will solve all our problems!

Eh ? It would surely solve many if not most of your problems ?

FlyingOink

Because I hate the lazy arguments. If your personal experience of men is not good then just state that.

Why then try to say that all men are like it?

Why try (and I know you aren't) to defend a female lawyer by basically saying that she only did it because of patriarchy? No what she did was sold out other women for her own benefit - both the victim but also women in general who now see what can happen.

I don't want to change anyone's mind. But I do want some people to take a good look at themselves before pointing their fingers at everyone else.

Well I’m afraid I will stay living with my husband, and my son, and teaching people’s daughters and sons while being a feminist.

OP, I hear you. I sometimes have moments where the behaviour of men to me personally, and then seeing the behaviour of men generally leads me to exasperatedly say "I don't really like this bunch." It's a very hard conclusion to escape. I don't hate all men, but I am wary and distrustful of them and it does take me some time to respect one beyond that first instinct of recoiling.

I appreciate that for some, this response to endemic male violence and bad behaviour is to sneer at the woman who admits it, for whatever psychological benefit they get, who knows, but all I wanted to add was that I hear you, I understand, I think it's a normal reaction to bad behaviour, and I don't think it is up to the victims of bad behaviour to solve the consequences or prevent further bad behaviour.

Nofap is a thing nowadays. So that statement that all physically able men masturbate is false, also saying that those who do ALL use porn is conjecture.
Yeah and NoFap practitioners have relapses. They use a support network to try to rid themselves of porn because of what it does to them, they are there because they've already used porn to excess. It's horrible stuff, it's free and it's everywhere.

Do please show me the studies that prove this.
It is my sincerely held belief, based on all my life's experience. You disagree, good for you. Change your name before you start a "woe is me" thread when you catch Nigel using Russian dwarf rape porn.
All men use porn. If it makes you uncomfortable to even consider that this might be true, think of what that means. Think of how much control Mindgeek has over society. Think of how impossible it would be to block adult content altogether. If the UK was to ban porn would it even be possible?

FWIW, whatever people's preferences are regarding the company of men or women, or only having friends and relationships with women is entirely up to you, do whatever you prefer would be my take.

I do wonder how some people who'd take a stance on having nothing to do with men function in the workplace though? I'm presupposing that most workplaces aren't entirely female.