I've realised that I just don't like men very much...

[SandAndSnow]

And I wanted to talk through it a bit, if that's ok. I hope this is the right place.

I'm sitting on a train next to a terrible man spreader so I'm feeling a bit raged at the moment, but it's also made me realise that I increasingly tend to treat men with caution and, if I'm honest, dislike.

I'm in my early thirties, have been sexually assaulted by 3 different boys/men, had a truly awful experience with a bullying (male) obstetrician, my father is an emotionally and at times physically abusive bully and I've been passed over for promotion in favour of a younger and less well qualified colleague by a male boss. As well as all the regular crap like street harassment, manspreading etc. I'm happily married, and I have a couple of male friends, but I'm generally much more comfortable and happy in the company of other women.

Now, perhaps I've been unlucky, and I need to just get over all of this. I'm entirely happy to be told this! And I'm happy to be told that this isn't normal, and I should seek help for this too.

But I wonder if other women feel the same, and that this is actually a rational response to the experiences which I've had?

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly
I do understand your argument.

That lawyer was not responsible for all the historic misogyny gone before.

She is entirely responsible for the act that she committed.

Weetabix, your posts are full of whataboutery cliches.
NAMALT
Women do that too.
Etc.

ArchbishopOfCunterbury

And what did she do to challenge that patriarchy? When she held the most power in the land how did she change things for the better for women?

Was she also not very friendly with Jimmy Saville?

www-independent-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/revealed-jimmy-saviles-close-friendship-with-margaret-thatcher-8432351.html?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&amp&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk%2Fpolitics%2Frevealed-jimmy-saviles-close-friendship-with-margaret-thatcher-8432351.html

Hhhmm. Yes. So you hold her up as some paragon of feminism do you?

Who gives a fuck what it's called when women do it - this thread isn't about women and their failings. You're determined to try and change that though aren't you.

then we are in agreement on this one thing Weetabixandshreddies

you just confused me a little. In response to your point at 08:43 which seemed to be something along the lines of 'some crimes are hard to prosecute and we should just accept that', I pointed out an example of misogynist tropes being used to defend men, i.e. sexism making mens crimes more likely to go unpunished

your only response to that appeared to be to blame the woman who did it

maybe you need to make yourself clearer?

ArchbishopOfCunterbury

And your posts are full of it's not women's fault, even when a woman is totally at fault, it's not her fault.

Society is a collection of individuals. Each of us has personal responsibility. I refuse to view an entire group based on the actions of some.

@BertrandRussell, thanks for the "list" a couple of pages back I was going to ask this question but you've provided an answer in advance.

7. Watch Nanette weekly to keep their minds focussed.

Bertrand I LOVE this! I can just see (in a perfect universe) a gaggle of men settling down in front of the TV together - after doing their fair share of tea, dishes ands bedtime of course - with a few beers and some crisps, for the required weekly viewing.

Apologies - I'm place-marking as this is definitely a conversation I'd like to come back to.

When she held the most power in the land how did she change things for the better for women?

well, I'm not convinced that the PM is the most powerful person in the land

HOWEVER, what she did for women was be a visible powerful woman

yes, she could have done more, but that was important

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly

Some crimes are hard to prosecute because evidence is difficult to obtain.

That is not evidence of some great conspiracy to protect male perpetrators.

I know a male DI working to prosecute child abuse and CSE cases. I know how hard they tried. The fact that many times they couldn't get enough evidence wasn't through want of trying or an example of men protecting men.

Is that clear enough?

HOWEVER, what she did for women was be a visible powerful woman

Oh well that's plenty then obviously.

How many women did she appoint to her cabinet?

What did she do to attack causes of poverty, that arguably affect women more?

What social policies did she introduce that benefitted women?

But in your opinion, simply being was more than enough?

I just find it rather telling that in a clear case of institutionalised sexism, your first instinct was to apportion blame to a woman Weetabixandshreddies

that may be something you wish to give some thought to

But in your opinion, simply being was more than enough?

now where did I say that?

I said quite clearly that Margaret Thatcher could have done more. in fact i used those very words

But every individual act contributes to the over all view

Well yes

Isnt that kind of the point of the thread

HOWEVER, what she did for women was be a visible powerful woman

Here we are your exact words. What she did for women was to be a visible, powerful woman!
She did nothing practical to actually change the lives of women for the better but she was visible and powerful!!!

I just find it rather telling that in a clear case of institutionalised sexism, your first instinct was to apportion blame to a woman Weetabixandshreddies

that may be something you wish to give some thought to smile

Yep. Strange that. I blame the person who is to blame. And, no thanks, I won't be thinking about it

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer

So you're ok with judging all women by the actions of that one female lawyer?

Which seems to be the point that you are making.

@Ruggypeg, your list of 'crimes' against women is absurd, albeit good for me to start the day with a good laugh
"Only recruiting attractive women" FFS

General question... is women watching porn OK? (so it's just men doing it you folks don't like, or is all porn watching bad regardless of who's doing it?)

It's fairly easy to minimise contact with men, you are not required to have relationships with them or befriend them. Keep interactions to a minimum.

Yes she should have more integrity and sorry, but that was her fault. Did someone hold a gun against her head to make her do it? No. Her job was to defend her client. Find a way to do it that doesn't involve referencing the victim's underwear. Why are you defending her behaviour, simply because she's a woman?

The only reason she used that defence is because she understood that in our patriarchal society, where women are blamed for inciting male violence, it would be seen as a valid one.

"Only recruiting attractive women" FFS

What on earth is FFS about that? Can't you see why that is damaging to women in general? Or are you suggesting it isn't a thing? - because it certainly is.

cor

I blame the person who is to blame

you feel that an individual lawyer is responsible for institutionalised sexism?

Investing her with rather a lot of power there. as well as the ability to time travel

She [Thatcher] did nothing practical to actually change the lives of women for the better but she was visible and powerful

seeing women in positions of power encourages other women to believe they can do the same

that's not why Thatcher was there, and I doubt she gave a shit about encouraging other women

but nonetheless, she did

General question... is women watching porn OK?

No. Porn is essentially rape on camera. Performing sex for money is not consent, it’s coercion. Anyone viewing porn is perpetuating the oppression of women as objects for the projection of violent male sexual fantasies.

(As an aside, a brilliant woman called Candy Gallop runs a website called malelovenotporn. It’s an ethical porn site, where all the couples featured have been thoroughly vetted for consent. You have to pay for it but it’s worth it to know you’re not complicit in human trafficking and rape.)

The only reason she used that defence is because she understood that in our patriarchal society, where women are blamed for inciting male violence, it would be seen as a valid one.
That's just excusing her behaviour. Everyone has to challenge sexism/misogyny. You can't just demand that men change it yet allow women to continue it.