I've realised that I just don't like men very much...

[SandAndSnow]

And I wanted to talk through it a bit, if that's ok. I hope this is the right place.

I'm sitting on a train next to a terrible man spreader so I'm feeling a bit raged at the moment, but it's also made me realise that I increasingly tend to treat men with caution and, if I'm honest, dislike.

I'm in my early thirties, have been sexually assaulted by 3 different boys/men, had a truly awful experience with a bullying (male) obstetrician, my father is an emotionally and at times physically abusive bully and I've been passed over for promotion in favour of a younger and less well qualified colleague by a male boss. As well as all the regular crap like street harassment, manspreading etc. I'm happily married, and I have a couple of male friends, but I'm generally much more comfortable and happy in the company of other women.

Now, perhaps I've been unlucky, and I need to just get over all of this. I'm entirely happy to be told this! And I'm happy to be told that this isn't normal, and I should seek help for this too.

But I wonder if other women feel the same, and that this is actually a rational response to the experiences which I've had?

I’m not holding up MT as a paragon of feminist virtue, rather the opposite, but individual women upholding the patriarchy are continuing the status quo.
They’re often held up as examples of the country not being a patriarchy - Teresa May - a woman, therefore not patriarchy - is bollocks, she is a female cog in a patriarchal wheel.

I don’t think women are blameless, but when it comes to male violence I fully stand by my opinions.

For me, the problem with porn is entirely bound up with the inequality in society.

If men and women were truly equal in every way, equal pay, equal opportunities and culturally and socially treated equally – there would be nothing wrong with watching sex acts between two equal, consenting parties.

What's wrong with porn is the way it overwhelmingly represents women as less powerful and the way it aims to please men by representing them as having power over women, degrading them and humiliating them. That then plays out in what men expect from women sexually, and also affects their general overall view of women as less important, there to please men, and of less value if they aren't sexually attractive / available.

Women watching porn - unless it's not of that type - might not be great for their self-esteem but is unlikely to make them go out and perpetuate inequality and other people's suffering.

you feel that an individual lawyer is responsible for institutionalised sexism?

Nope. As I specifically said. But she is responsible for the sexism that she employed there. And yes, she did have a lot of power there.

seeing women in positions of power encourages other women to believe they can do the same

Really? Maybe you are right. Not as powerful as actually making changes that affect many women's lives for the better though hey?

I think you could find many, many women guilty of some of those "crimes" too. Gaslighting, ignoring (or perpetuating) the pay gap, victim blaming, using misogynistic language and mansplaining (!!!!)

It’s a false equivalence. And one that helps men keep getting away with it.

You have to view these behaviours in context. Women are an oppressed class. Men are the oppressors. It’s not a level playing field.

A man murders a woman to exert the ultimate control over her and silence her forever.

A woman murders a man to escape his control.

Both are murderers but the context is completely different.

Your argument is predicated on the notion that that context is irrelevant. It absolutely is relevant and goes right to the heart of the debate.

If you hate men, just don't have relationships with them, I mean it's not mandatory ?? I do t understand.

If you are in a position of authority then it's a problem if you are prejudiced in this way obviously. Not sure what you can do about it though, maybe discuss the issues with a therapist or resign ?

That's just excusing her behaviour. Everyone has to challenge sexism/misogyny. You can't just demand that men change it yet allow women to continue it

It’s not an excuse for her behaviour. Is exactly the opposite. It’s the reason for her behaviour!

Why would she present a defence that would be rejected as unreasonable.

The problem isn’t that she presented underwear as a defence to rape (although it is problematic). The problem is that it was viewed by the court as a reasonable defence at all. The problem is that she knew it would be accepted by the jury. THAT’S the real issue.

A man murders a woman to exert the ultimate control over her and silence her forever.

A woman murders a man to escape his control.

Both are murderers but the context is completely different.
Are you referring to specific examples or are you saying that everytime a man murders a woman it is to exert control and every time a woman murders a man it is to escape his control?

medium.com/@caityjohnstone/this-is-everything-that-is-wrong-with-mainstream-feminism-e6a23586569c?_referrer=twitter

The problem isn’t that she presented underwear as a defence to rape (although it is problematic). The problem is that it was viewed by the court as a reasonable defence at all. The problem is that she knew it would be accepted by the jury. THAT’S the real issue.

But she did not have to enter that as a defence in the first place.

Regardless of how it was viewed (which is problematic) the fact that she was prepared to do it is a problem.

The problem is that it was viewed by the court as a reasonable defence at all. The problem is that she knew it would be accepted by the jury. THAT’S the real issue

yes. by rights the judge and jury should have been scratching their heads thinking 'what's this person's underwear got to do with this?'

instead they all understood that women should be held responsible for male actions, that 'asking for it' is a thing.

I think that if you are a teacher it would be bad to have these opinions as well. There are some professions where such views are going to be problematic, but otherwise just avoid men as practically as possible. And don't try and have a sexual relationship with one, it's not that hard surely ?

Are you referring to specific examples or are you saying that everytime a man murders a woman it is to exert control and every time a woman murders a man it is to escape his control?

Both, actually.

Thanks Brink for the explanation, its interesting to know that men watching porn is a problem and women doing it isn't, and your reasons for that. Not that I agree that's why porn gets watched.
You think men watch porn to "perpetuate inequality"; I am doubtful about this.

Attractiveness = Value is as old as the hills, hence the FFS on "recruiting attractive women" and this being a crime.

yes. by rights the judge and jury should have been scratching their heads thinking 'what's this person's underwear got to do with this?'

We don't know how the jury viewed it though do we?

They might well have ignored it.

TwitterLovesMAPs

Then that is utter rubbish.

Categorically no way has every murder of a man by a woman been because she is trying to escape him.

What utter codswallop.

Wewtabix- you were quite selective in your comment on my “list”! But I noticed you said that no decent man would watch porn. I agree with you. That’s one of the reasons I think decent men are in a vanishingly small minority.

BertrandRussell

Not selective. The things on your list are what decent men are already doing and some of others simply aren't in the control of the average man, no matter how much he agrees with them.

And maybe you need to look more closely at the company that you keep if you think that so few men follow your list.

We don't know how the jury viewed it though do we?

yes, I expect the jury was made up of radical feminists who fully understood the structural inequalities women face

we know the judge saw it as germane though don't we, because he allowed it to stand

I am quite in awe of the effort some people will put into upholding the idea of NAMALT

The most likely time for a woman to be murdered is when she’s leaving an abusive relationship.

Her abusive partner realises she is no longer within his control and so he kills her.

There are tons and tons of data on this. If you don’t want to take my word for it, start by reading the DASH risk assessment on Laura Richards’ website. There’s also lots of information on women who are killed by ex partners or stalkers on the paladin-service uk website and also Karen Ingala Smith’s Countdeadwomen site.

Male violence is endemic in our society.

You’re pathetic ‘whataboutery?’ is damaging and insidious.

To be fair, I’ve been reading and studying and learning about this stuff for a good couple of years. If you’re just dipping into this debate without a great deal of understanding of the complexities and the context then I can see why you’d be drawing for the flimsy and uninformed ‘NAMALT’ argument.

But this is not an intellectual exercise in debating. This is literally life or death. Women are dying because of male violence at a rate of two a week. There is no reverse equivalence. Women are not killing men at a rate of two a week. Women rarely kill at all, unless it’s to escape years of intolerable abuse.

You really, really need to educate yourself.

“You think men watch porn to "perpetuate inequality"; I am doubtful about this.“
I don’t think that men watch porn to perpetuate inequality- but I do think that is a consequence.

However, the problem with porn is twofold. First- the nature of the sex industry is to exploit women. So watching porn puts money into the pockets of traffickers and exploiters. For that reason no decent person should watch mainstream open. Secondly, porn perpetuates the idea that women are basically holes to fuck. This view, often dressed up in pretty clothes and language is a prevalent one in our society, and one which we should be fighting against with all our strength.

You think men watch porn to "perpetuate inequality"; I am doubtful about this.

No I don't, I think they watch porn to get turned on! They are not planning to indoctrinate themselves in order to better oppress women. It's the structural inequality that is reflected in porn and then perpetuated by it because of how it affects men's attitudes to women.

If women watch that, it is may also influence them and their ideas about what sex is supposed to be like and how they are supposed to "be" for men, and that is also not at all good IMO. However there is a massive difference in that men are encouraged by porn to treat women degradingly and put pressure on them about how they should behave and how their bodies should be. That's not going to be the case the other way round because women's role in porn is generally not like that.

So women watching porn is bad for women, and men watching porn is bad for women.

I think that if you are a teacher it would be bad to have these opinions as well.

I find it one of the most satisfying parts of my job, to challenge sexism and get a little feminism into the curriculum. It’s shocking how ingrained a small degree of misogyny is in even young adults and how resistant to addressing it they can be.

I don’t hate men, but I do hate the patriarchy. I’ve said upthread how I don’t enjoy the company of men as much as that of women, in general, though I’m not entirely sure why. I found working in all boys schools not my cup of tea and the behaviour towards women (and each other) in that environment markedly worse than in mixed sex environments.

(I also think watching porn is bad for men, because it makes them less likely to place value on being respectful, caring and equal partners, and in the long term that contributes to marriage breakups and so many men being as inadequate and undesirable as they are. But the impact on women is worse.)

TwitterLovesMAPs

I'm nit disputing men killing women.

I am disputing your assertion that all women who murder men are doing so to escape his control (and I asked you to clarify if that is what you meant and you confirmed that it was).

That is utter rubbish.

Women rarely kill at all, unless it’s to escape years of intolerable abuse. tosh.

I think you need to educate yourself.