I've realised that I just don't like men very much...

[SandAndSnow]

And I wanted to talk through it a bit, if that's ok. I hope this is the right place.

I'm sitting on a train next to a terrible man spreader so I'm feeling a bit raged at the moment, but it's also made me realise that I increasingly tend to treat men with caution and, if I'm honest, dislike.

I'm in my early thirties, have been sexually assaulted by 3 different boys/men, had a truly awful experience with a bullying (male) obstetrician, my father is an emotionally and at times physically abusive bully and I've been passed over for promotion in favour of a younger and less well qualified colleague by a male boss. As well as all the regular crap like street harassment, manspreading etc. I'm happily married, and I have a couple of male friends, but I'm generally much more comfortable and happy in the company of other women.

Now, perhaps I've been unlucky, and I need to just get over all of this. I'm entirely happy to be told this! And I'm happy to be told that this isn't normal, and I should seek help for this too.

But I wonder if other women feel the same, and that this is actually a rational response to the experiences which I've had?

Certain crimes are notoriously difficult to prosecute for many reasons...What do you suggest?

ummm

first suggestion, how about making the fact that a woman was wearing lacy underwear irrelevant in a rape trial

or do you think this was a completely OK defence?

Weetabix, I’m not basing my opinion on one LadBible post, I’m basing it on my lived experience. I’m basing it on the constant excuses made for men, I’m basing it on my own life.
LadBible neatly summed it up.

I wouldn’t be so naïve to suggest that all women hold this view because of this one thread, because real life tells me otherwise.
Most rl women I know are similar to you, making excuses and dismissing a view that is fully evidenced.

I really don't think that it's a major issue here. There are far more women who (through socialisation) tend to give men the benefit of the doubt, or who loudly decry NAMALT or Not my Nigel for this to ever be a problem to the extent that it significantly impacts men's lives at all.

Exactly. (There's always someone who puts it better than me)

And thank you WH1SPERS

But why is it a woman’s job to change a man’s attitude?
I don't think it is a woman's job to change a man's attitude. I do think that it is a mother's job to raise boys to be decent men. And yes, that should of course be the dad's job too, but what option do you have if the dad is not around?

first suggestion, how about making the fact that a woman was wearing lacy underwear irrelevant in a rape trial

Yep, disgusting. Irrelevant to any trial and should not be allowed. Was that not a female lawyer who did that though?

Your point doesn't stand in the slightest Weetabix. You tried to minimise and dismiss each experience by twisting numbers to falsely include every man in the UK as a comparison. There are an awful lot of women everywhere reporting similar things and I'm fairly certain the perpetrators aren't 100 or so very busy men, each one travelling the country and bringing violence to 1000s of women. This is a problem that must be addressed urgently.

Most rl women I know are similar to you, making excuses and dismissing a view that is fully evidenced.

Maybe because we are basing our opinions based on our lived experiences, just as you are?

Or is it only you who is allowed to do that? So only your experiences and those who have similar experiences, are the only views allowed?

Why can’t these so called nice men, start pulling up the attitudes of other men and start to challenge them? Yes I agree with that. But you said 'so called' therefore you still think that all men are inherently evil. That's not a great starting point

For anyone asking what men can do- here followeth The List.

1. Take full responsibility for their fair share of domestic work and childcare.
2. Challenge sexist/ misogynist/violent talk and behaviour every time they see it and wherever they see it
3. Stop using prostitutes.
4. Challenge sexist work practices-for example making sure that any panel, board or committee they are on at least represents the sex balance of the organization - if necessary refusing to go on it if it isn't.
5. Stop watching porn.
6. Stop buying and playing sexist video games, and films that don't pass the Bedschel test.
7. Watch Nanette weekly to keep their minds focussed.
8. Think about how they parent their boys, and remember that they are the next generation of men. And that they are the man their children will learn about relationships from.

9) Make sure that they acknowledge, and let their children see them acknowledge, the contribution their wife or partner makes to the family. This is particularly important when she is a SAHP.

(7 is not entirely serious)

Not at all. I do believe there are genuinely nice men out there

However it’s the men who think they are nice men, generally tend not to be..and then they whine about women not wanting them and therefore they may as well be arseholes as these men never seem to have a problem.

My dh is a lovely man. He’s very respectful to women and pulls his fair share to housework and child rearing.

He is one who will pull men up on their disgusting behaviour if he sees it.

Saying that though, there are still times he forgets how internalised misogyny is, and will say something without realising. I have to pull him up on it and you can see it click in his mind

People are so complacent at times that they forget how internalised it can be.

Even I do it sometimes and only realise when I read something on here

Was that not a female lawyer who did that though?

any lawyer doing this should fucking well have more integrity. However I think it's investing this individual with too much power to say that it's her fault that sexist defences work in court isn't it?

You tried to minimise and dismiss each experience by twisting numbers to falsely include every man in the UK as a comparison. There are an awful lot of women everywhere reporting similar things and I'm fairly certain the perpetrators aren't 100 or so very busy men, each one travelling the country and bringing violence to 1000s of women. This is a problem that must be addressed urgently.

I'm not trying to minimise or dismiss anything and how am I twisting numbers? People here have repeatedly insinuated that all men, or most men are xxxx. All means all surely? Most means more than half.

Roughly 30 million men in the UK.

80,000 men in prison. Say as many again haven't been caught that's 160 000 men, out of 30 million. Times it by 10, that's 800 000 out of 30 million.

How far do you go before you get to most of 30 million.

It makes no sense.

I don't like most men tbh and I treat every man I meet with caution. the ones that say not all men are usually the worst

BertrandRussell

But many men do that already. And I have a problem with expecting men to challenge violence. Like fuck am I going to tell my son that he is responsible for doing that - call for help, act as a witness, yes. Get involved to stop it, no.

As for stop using prostitutes and viewing porn - yeah. Decent men don't do that any way.

And making changes to management structures - yes men in that position should do that. Very few men are in such a position.

any lawyer doing this should fucking well have more integrity. However I think it's investing this individual with too much power to say that it's her fault that sexist defences work in court isn't it?

Yes she should have more integrity and sorry, but that was her fault. Did someone hold a gun against her head to make her do it? No. Her job was to defend her client. Find a way to do it that doesn't involve referencing the victim's underwear. Why are you defending her behaviour, simply because she's a woman?

The statistics are unequivocal about violence against women and girls. My personal experience of many good men is irrelevant. It's a crisis of male making and females cannot solve it. I do expect the good men to pitch in and sort it out. Because women's voices simply cannot.

Why are you defending her behaviour, simply because she's a woman?

I'm not

but I'm saying the fact that the defence was effective is not her fault

it's a bit much to blame one woman for all misogynist thinking no?

I mean I know women are responsible for everything men do, but let's cut this one individual a little slack

Thanks Bertrand

As for stop using prostitutes and viewing porn - yeah. Decent men don't do that any way

pron is unbelievably, incredibly, hugely profitable

there must be a lot of 'not decent' men propping up that business.....

Weetabix - I'd bet my life savings that all men are guilty of at least one 'crime' against women, be that watching porn, using prostitutes, gaslighting, abusing, cat-calling, rape jokes, turning a blind eye to the pay gap, victim blaming, only recruiting attractive women, using misogynistic language, mansplaining, not challenging other men etc.

Every week in the UK two women are murdered by men.

And even more men are murdered by other men.

You think it’s not a male problem? You think women saying ‘but NAMALT’ solves that problem?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/100000-assaults-1000-rapists-sentenced-shockingly-low-conviction-rates-revealed-8446058.html

That's rape, a particularly serious crime that is liable for long sentences. In 1 year. In the UK. What chance is there to receive justice for 'minor' transgressions against women? And you pretend there isn't a huge problem?

100,000 rapes in 1 year. That number is mind-blowing. Up to 1 MILLION rapes in a decade. There are only about 67 million people in the UK. It is war against us.

but I'm saying the fact that the defence was effective is not her fault

it's a bit much to blame one woman for all misogynist thinking no?

But every individual act contributes to the over all view.

So this woman has made it appear acceptable to blame a woman for being raped because of the underwear that she wore. A woman saying this gives that argument more credibility so yes, she is responsible.

The judge should have stepped in and stopped her, the jury should have given no weight to the argument (maybe they didn't, who knows) but that lawyer should still have had the integrity to not do it. That she did, is on her.

“Maybe because we are basing our opinions based on our lived experiences, just as you are?”

Many of the women I know would say this, but many of them are conditioned to see patriarchy as benign.
Many of these women put up with awful behaviour from their menfolk and see it as part and parcel of married life.
So forgive me if I’m wary of believing their lives experiences when they’re blind to how they are being treated.

Weetabix - I'd bet my life savings that all men are guilty of at least one 'crime' against women, be that watching porn, using prostitutes, gaslighting, abusing, cat-calling, rape jokes, turning a blind eye to the pay gap, victim blaming, only recruiting attractive women, using misogynistic language, mansplaining, not challenging other men etc.

I think you could find many, many women guilty of some of those "crimes" too. Gaslighting, ignoring (or perpetuating) the pay gap, victim blaming, using misogynistic language and mansplaining (!!!!)

Of course, only men do any of these.

And mansplaining? Really? Subjective to say the least isn't it? I know plenty of know it all women - no matter your experience they know more, know how to do it better etc. What's it called when it's a woman doing it?

So this woman has made it appear acceptable to blame a woman for being raped because of the underwear that she wore. A woman saying this gives that argument more credibility so yes, she is responsible

this one woman is responsible for thousands of years of misogynist thinking that allowed a 'she was asking for it' argument to get weight in court?

cor

harsh

or is it possible you didn't understand my argument?

Holding individual women to account is all well and good, but surely it’s important to note that they are a small part of a patriarchal system.
Margaret Thatcher made some deplorable decisions, but she was a figure in the mans world of politics, educated and reared in a patriarchy, worked her way up to the top of a patriarchal government.
You can bet your arse that if Thatcher hadn’t confirmed to patriarchy she wouldn’t have even had her foot on the first ring of the ladder.