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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

I've realised that I just don't like men very much...

999 replies

SandAndSnow · 04/02/2019 14:03

And I wanted to talk through it a bit, if that's ok. I hope this is the right place.

I'm sitting on a train next to a terrible man spreader so I'm feeling a bit raged at the moment, but it's also made me realise that I increasingly tend to treat men with caution and, if I'm honest, dislike.

I'm in my early thirties, have been sexually assaulted by 3 different boys/men, had a truly awful experience with a bullying (male) obstetrician, my father is an emotionally and at times physically abusive bully and I've been passed over for promotion in favour of a younger and less well qualified colleague by a male boss. As well as all the regular crap like street harassment, manspreading etc. I'm happily married, and I have a couple of male friends, but I'm generally much more comfortable and happy in the company of other women.

Now, perhaps I've been unlucky, and I need to just get over all of this. I'm entirely happy to be told this! Smile And I'm happy to be told that this isn't normal, and I should seek help for this too.

But I wonder if other women feel the same, and that this is actually a rational response to the experiences which I've had?

OP posts:
BlancheM · 05/02/2019 07:43

I can identify with the OP.
I don't think I'll ever be involved consensually with a man ever again. Non-consensually, probably, I'm still young.
I had relationships and children relatively early. The relationships weren't good. I've tried dating on/off. Most men I encountered are perverts: 'are you a squirter?', 'will you take it up the arse?' ect. It's not hard to get a man, they will flood your inbox with these charming questions and requests for 'nudes'. So I cast my net wider and considered older men. And guess what? Most are shit fathers. Going on about bitch exes, whining about paying maintenance, lamenting the fact they 'can't' see their kids whilst seemingly doing nothing about it. It's not attractive to me. I felt bad for the mothers of their children.
All the times women on here are told to LTB, rightfully, and they do. Do those men work on their issues? No! They just end up back in the sea for some other poor women, possibly more vulnerable.

Weetabixandshreddies · 05/02/2019 07:55

hope we have brought him up to be a good and decent man, and that he will be able to show, by actions and words that he is a good and decent man.

If this thread is anything to go by he won't het a chance to show that he's a decent man though because people have already decided that there are no decent ones.

dragoning · 05/02/2019 08:04

Bringing up boys feels like a constant battle against a world that doesn't care how they turn out. In practice, men can mistreat women with impunity. The question is 'why not my Nigel?'

OP you can't help how you feel. I don't feel the same, but I hear you. It is unfortunate for men that mistreatment leads some women to distrust the whole group. The solution is for men to ensure that women are no longer mistreated.

derxa · 05/02/2019 08:15

Then I have no idea what the point of your sheep farming anecdote was or it's relevance to the thread. Anecdotes are never valid on here that's true. I'm saying that I find this 'men as a class are evil' idea unhelpful. Bertrand always comes on and says that it's men who have to be in charge of changing men's attitudes and round and round it goes.
My point is that in that meeting we agreed that the man we know who beat up his wife is an evil bastard. The man in the meeting agreed about this. The whole community agrees. Community shame is a powerful thing. Theoretical discussions about how all men are potential wife beaters not so useful.

Weetabixandshreddies · 05/02/2019 08:16

Do you think it's justified to judge any other group of people, based on the actions of some?

Do you do that in any other walk of life?

picklemepopcorn · 05/02/2019 08:22

People are getting side tracked with individualism. This isn't really about 'my Nigel'. It's about a system and structure that appears to reward people for behaviours that are fundamentally destructive.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 05/02/2019 08:23

It's not 'some' men though is it? According to the WHO more than a third of women worldwide will suffer from male violence during their lifetimes, most likely from a partner. They aren't great odds for us.

RuggyPeg · 05/02/2019 08:23

I have grown increasingly weary of men as I've got older. Having spent time on Mumsnet too, this has only escalated. Almost all men are entitled, mansplaininers, sexist, misogynistic, creepy, abusive twonks. There is of course the odd exception but they are a rarity.

picklemepopcorn · 05/02/2019 08:24

Weetabix, would it be ok to allow institutional racism to go unchallenged because 'not all white people are like that'?

dragoning · 05/02/2019 08:24

Derxa, I think that men shaming a man's poor behaviour usually carries more weight than when a woman does it. In a community situation maybe it's not the group but the male participation that is effective?

We seek good male role models for our sons for a reason. At some point, boys and men need a frame of reference for male behaviour that only other males can provide. IMO.

picklemepopcorn · 05/02/2019 08:25

And why are you more worried about the smoke than the fire?

Transpeaked · 05/02/2019 08:26

Nope. I don’t like men in general, either. After 40+ years I’ve come to realise what selfish shits they generally are. I have a partner and I know the odd man online who really is a good-un but that’s about it and I have no interest in making friends with any

BertrandRussell · 05/02/2019 08:30

“Bertrand always comes on and says that it's men who have to be in charge of changing men's attitudes and round and round it goes.”
Hey-explain to me why it isn’t and I promise I’ll stop......

RuggyPeg · 05/02/2019 08:32

Yes, doughnut, that's exactly what she was doing - trolling a bereaved parents thread..........

Jeez.......

derxa · 05/02/2019 08:34

Hey-explain to me why it isn’t and I promise I’ll stop...... I'm not condemning you but maybe you could give concrete examples of what men should do.

ArchbishopOfCunterbury · 05/02/2019 08:34

“in that meeting we agreed that the man we know who beat up his wife is an evil bastard. The man in the meeting agreed about this. The whole community agrees. Community shame is a powerful thing.”

This is far from my experience, and of experiences I’ve read about.
Violent men are too often shielded from the shame because they’re pillars of the community, good men, decent men who wouldn’t do this.
Newspaper reports about men who killed their families often start with disclaimers that they were good fathers, good husbands.
Rape is rarely convicted.
Child abuse is rarely convicted.
If violent men were consistently shamed maybe we would be seeing an improvement. Instead we see excuses, reasons to allow men to continue behaving poorly towards other people.
Look at Jimmy Savile. For how long were his actions known about? How many people knew about it? How many people stood by and did nothing until he was dead?

Right now on FB, LadBible (I know, what do I expect) has a post about a woman, a tv personality, having her bottom openly filmed by a man in the background. The comments section is full of men making excuses, making vile wank jokes. Occasionally a female poster comments about consent etc, but they are wrong, she’s asking for it etc.
If I talk to real life people I know, most of them think a woman is asking for it if she wears revealing clothes, or is drunk. Why aren’t men consistently held responsible, why are we expecting so little in terms of decent behaviour? And if we do hold these men to account, why are we continually shot down because NAMALT?

BertrandRussell · 05/02/2019 08:35

“I'm not condemning you but maybe you could give concrete examples of what men should do.”
Time for Bertrand’s List! Hang on-I’ll find it!

Weetabixandshreddies · 05/02/2019 08:35

Weetabix, would it be ok to allow institutional racism to go unchallenged because 'not all white people are like that'

I'm confused by this argument. Challenging institutionalised racism is for the benefit of the victims of racism.

Any racism is wrong because that is judging all members of a group, as a whole, rather than as individuals.

Why is this conversation any different? PPs are saying "all men", "most men" "the majority of men". Swap "men" for any other group of people and it wouldn't be acceptable would it?

How do you not know that by holding these views you aren't creating a self fulfilling prophecy?

Some posters here report many incidents with different men. That's dreadful that they've had even one of those experiences let alone many. But say they've met 10 men like that, out of what 30 million men say in the UK. How can you, from your experience of 10,20 even 30 men out of 30 million, then say that all men or most men are like this?

ArchbishopOfCunterbury · 05/02/2019 08:37

And WH1SPERS, they were all excellent posts, thank you!

Alltheprettyseahorses · 05/02/2019 08:41

say they've met 10 men like that, out of what 30 million men say in the UK

No, they've met 10 men like that from a pool of maybe 40 men at most with whom they would be likely to have intimate experiences of some kind. And repeat for each woman.

Charley50 · 05/02/2019 08:41

Weetabix - sexism is institutionalised and women and girls are the victims.
Yes in law we are supposed to have equality (having fought for it, as black people had to fight for their rights) but still there is a gender pay gap, and still men make rape threats on Twitter and that's ok. Still a man can violently kill a woman and get a mere couple of years for manslaughter.
And tbh look at women's rights worldwide. Half of the Middle East is like fucking Gilead.

Weetabixandshreddies · 05/02/2019 08:43

ArchbishopOfCunterbury

Those men making those comments on ladbible are vile. But, you are looking at a specific site and then judging all men by the behaviour of the morons on that site. It's like people reading the comments on here and then saying that all women think like this. You've gone to a very specific group who are renown for exhibiting that behaviour in order to conclude that all men do that.

Men should be held responsible for crimes that they commit but it isn't just men shielding them is it? Certain crimes are notoriously difficult to prosecute for many reasons - lack of evidence, lack of witnesses, witnesses refusing to give evidence. What do you suggest? Police prosecute and juries convict with no supporting evidence?

Weetabixandshreddies · 05/02/2019 08:45

No, they've met 10 men like that from a pool of maybe 40 men at most with whom they would be likely to have intimate experiences of some kind. And repeat for each woman.

My point stands. All you can say is "all of the men that I have known have been like this". To say "all men are..." you are meaning all men, not 10 men out of 40 or whatever.

Weetabixandshreddies · 05/02/2019 08:46

Charley50

But none of that is right or justified.

You still cannot say that all men or most men.

Soubriquet · 05/02/2019 08:48

“Bertrand always comes on and says that it's men who have to be in charge of changing men's attitudes and round and round it goes.

But why is it a woman’s job to change a man’s attitude?

Why do women have to responsible for everything?

Why can’t these so called nice men, start pulling up the attitudes of other men and start to challenge them?

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