I've realised that I just don't like men very much...

[SandAndSnow]

And I wanted to talk through it a bit, if that's ok. I hope this is the right place.

I'm sitting on a train next to a terrible man spreader so I'm feeling a bit raged at the moment, but it's also made me realise that I increasingly tend to treat men with caution and, if I'm honest, dislike.

I'm in my early thirties, have been sexually assaulted by 3 different boys/men, had a truly awful experience with a bullying (male) obstetrician, my father is an emotionally and at times physically abusive bully and I've been passed over for promotion in favour of a younger and less well qualified colleague by a male boss. As well as all the regular crap like street harassment, manspreading etc. I'm happily married, and I have a couple of male friends, but I'm generally much more comfortable and happy in the company of other women.

Now, perhaps I've been unlucky, and I need to just get over all of this. I'm entirely happy to be told this! And I'm happy to be told that this isn't normal, and I should seek help for this too.

But I wonder if other women feel the same, and that this is actually a rational response to the experiences which I've had?

LAYDEES PLEASE !!!

Stop talking about your own lives, your experiences and concerns, hopes and fears. Shut up already because you might make a man or a handmaiden reading this feel bad.

Remember you are not allowed to have even one thread on one board on this tiny corner of the internet that’s not all about centring men and their feelings.

Be nice.

Be constructive.

Remember that if your sons are regarded with suspicion by women, it’s not because of Male violence. It’s because you talked about it on Mumsnet.

Why are they seen as victims? Why don't we question why women continue to repeat the same mistake over and over?

Just when you think you've reached Peak LadyMisogynist they escalate again.

I'm a bloke and can attest that I definitely have a fair few male friends who (despite being pleasant and respectful of women in general) are a bit lazy with the housework.

However, on the flipside a lot of their partners expect them to mow the lawn, fix the car etc so it's not a one way path, although admittedly housework is more time consuming in its entirety.

There was a thread on here a while back ("I'm a feminist but...") and I was surprised to be honest by how many of the posters on here admitted to leaving car/diy tasks to their men, so I'd imagine it's even more common wirh the majority of women who aren't so strongly feminist.

Thank you DoughnutCowboy. It’s so helpful to have a male opinion on a thread where women are talking about their own experiences of misogyny and how they feel about that.

It's a widely held principle that gang culture exists where teens, usually male but not always, lack strong family ties and a sense of belonging. The gangs fill that void.

These problems aren't affecting rich middle class kids with advantages are they?

I think this is a good point and one which is often missed by sex based class analysis which doesn't examine other classes as rigourously.

Thank you DoughnutCowboy. It’s so helpful to have a male opinion on a thread where women are talking about their own experiences of misogyny and how they feel about that.

I'm glad that my input is welcome. A lot of posters seem to be of the opinion that only women are allowed to post on this website 'for parents'.

When I first joined MN I thought that too ,DougnutCowboy . Initially I was put off posting on the Litter Tray because I don’t have any pets or the Forces Sweethearts threads because I know nothing about the Armed services.

But then I thought “ what the hell, I’m a parent , so I will just jump on in there and give them the benefit of my wisdom, coz I’m a women and the posters there will love to hear my opinion” . Even though I don’t know a single thing about the subject, I’d don’t let that hold me back.

In fact, I don’t know about infertility either, but I like to drop in and tell them how great my kids are. And as a white person, I like to explain to the Multicultural families how they are doing it wrong.

What makes you assume that I 'don't know anything about the subject'?

You're probably right though. It'll be much easier to solve the problem if we don't engage men, right.

Someone once suggested that I was a little insensitive to go on the Bereaved Parents board and tell them to buck up a bit. But I said “ look mate, I know my rights. This site is called Mumsnet and I’m a mum so you have to listen to me and my opinions”.

That put their gas at a peep, I can tell you.

I might not have lost a child but once I misplaced one of them in Asda , which is totally the same thing.

I don`t like men either! the ones i come into contact with are vile.the times i have had to leave jobs due to sexual harrassment.so i think they should all be put in a cage,definitely dna swabs taken at birth,rapists would be caught sooner!

Funnily enough, they said to me that the point of the thread wasn’t to solve child death. So my comments on reducing pollution , improving road safety and funding of the NHS were not welcome.

They said the thread was to create a space space for the parents affected by the issue to discuss their experiences and feelings with others who understood.

And that my lectures on how they caused it themselves by driving cars and voting Tory were crass and insensitive, that’s it wasn’t the time or the place.

And that I should start my own thread on these topics if that’s what I wanted to discuss and not gatecrash theirs.

They suggested that the opening post which said it was for other bereaved family members was clue.

WH1SPERS

I feel like you're probably going to have those magnificently pointed and funny posts deleted, but I wanted to appreciate them openly. Loving your work.

WH1SPERS you have improved my insomnia tenfold.

X post Floral!

So you were trolling a thread about child bereavement? That's exactly the same as giving your opinion about men not pulling their weight with the housework. 😆

Wow. I saw the first page of this thread earlier today, and very strongly identified with the OP. I have just now come back to MN and thought I’d just skip to the last page and see how the thread was developing. BOY am I SURPRISED to see the turn it has taken!! This hardly ever happens!

Thank you WH1SPERS.

I propose that the WH1SPERS meets Tuesdays at 7 at the Misandrist Arms.

I think I must be being very thick, but I am not understanding how hating men makes us any better than MRAs.

Considering most people here have said they do know decent men, it is evident that they exist.

I understand that it tends to be men who commit violent crime, rape etc (been on the receiving end of that), and that whilst NAMALT, the ones that are don't come with a label to identify them.

But if we resort to generalisations about men because of their sex, how can we not expect the same treatment from men? Yet that is what feminism has been fighting against for years. I don't understand it.

It is also a sad fact that people who have been abused, tend to end up in future abusive relationships, as that is what is familiar to them. That doesn't make the abuse the woman's fault, but it does mean that if all the men a woman knows are abusive, she is likely to have a dim view of them overall.

Does that mean that those of us who know that men are as varied as women, and just as likely to be good as women, are wrong? Why is it ok to dismiss positive relationships with men, but wrong to dismiss a woman's negative experiences?

I am not trying to be goady, I genuinely don't understand. Surely people are people and to dislike a whole group, based on the behaviour of some of a group, means that we are being bigoted? If all my experiences with members of the travelling community were negative, I would still be wrong to dislike the community as a whole, surely?

I thank the OP for starting this conversation.

A couple of years ago I chose this topic for the final assessment of my social work qualification. I had spent the previous eighteen months in a relationship with a previously heterosexual, single mother, and very quickly realized that the things that she and her friends put up with in their relationships with men were so far beyond my frame of reference it made my head spin. Then I discovered a class-based analysis in my feminism and became really angry. Angry at men as a class, and probably, to be honest, even angrier at the women who seem to prop up this cultural grooming like it's the most natural thing in the world.

It's only over the last year or so that I've stopped apologising for having no interest in men as a class, and not taking them particularly seriously. I honestly think my anger and resentment is more than justified in light of the bullshit that is male supremacy.

Luckily for me, aside from my professional obligations I have the financial and personal autonomy to live my life separate from men and I see my sexuality as a gift, if only for this reason.

^ And as an aside for my last comment (and once again, I resent that this even has to be said), my parents have a loving and supportive relationship and I have never had any form of abuse in my life that might influence my opinion on this.

I hate that instantly in saying this, my sexuality and personal choices have to exist in relation to men. I choose to consciously live a life that is woman-centered. That is my prerogative and I need nobody else's permission to do as I please in that regard, or to apologise for it like there's something wrong with me for making that choice.

WeetabixAndShreddies, you said:

"BrassBellsAndElephants
How does it make you feel that your son will be viewed as one of these men?

Do you not mind that he will be treated by a PP as statistically going to be guilty of one or more of rape, abusive behaviour/DV, sexual assault or harassment, cheating or dodgy sexting or porn searches."

I really don't think that it's a major issue here. There are far more women who (through socialisation) tend to give men the benefit of the doubt, or who loudly decry NAMALT or Not my Nigel for this to ever be a problem to the extent that it significantly impacts men's lives at all.

Just try to remember: when you get to be over 50 it doesn't matter

Blimey! From the OP "And I wanted to talk through it a bit, if that's ok. I hope this is the right place. "
Obviously it's not. Not sure where is then?

And thank you Whispers.

“How does it make you feel that your son will be viewed as one of these men?

Do you not mind that he will be treated by a PP as statistically going to be guilty of one or more of rape, abusive behaviour/DV, sexual assault or harassment, cheating or dodgy sexting or porn searches.”

I hate it. But the fact remains that he is. How can I blame women for regarding him that way? I hope we have brought him up to be a good and decent man, and that he will be able to show, by actions and words that he is a good and decent man. And I hope that he will be part of a new generation of men who look at their sex’s historic behaviour and say “not in my name”. But it would be hypocritical of me to say “men as a class are X-apart from Bertrandsson”