I've realised that I just don't like men very much...

[SandAndSnow]

And I wanted to talk through it a bit, if that's ok. I hope this is the right place.

I'm sitting on a train next to a terrible man spreader so I'm feeling a bit raged at the moment, but it's also made me realise that I increasingly tend to treat men with caution and, if I'm honest, dislike.

I'm in my early thirties, have been sexually assaulted by 3 different boys/men, had a truly awful experience with a bullying (male) obstetrician, my father is an emotionally and at times physically abusive bully and I've been passed over for promotion in favour of a younger and less well qualified colleague by a male boss. As well as all the regular crap like street harassment, manspreading etc. I'm happily married, and I have a couple of male friends, but I'm generally much more comfortable and happy in the company of other women.

Now, perhaps I've been unlucky, and I need to just get over all of this. I'm entirely happy to be told this! And I'm happy to be told that this isn't normal, and I should seek help for this too.

But I wonder if other women feel the same, and that this is actually a rational response to the experiences which I've had?

I personally get on better with males and have done right from being a small child. In the main I find them far less complicated and, in the decent ones, "what you see is what you get". I can't stand cattiness, being two-faced or women trying to compete with each other. I find men in the main more simple (in a nice way!)

Have we? So we've addressed lack of educational opportunities, poverty, lack of good role models in homes with absent fathers, abuse and neglect at home, undiagnosed learning disabilities...

I said it upthread but you missed it. Selective hearing is a bugger isn't it.

Women are not oppressing men. The men who are being disadvantaged are in that position because of other men. All the more reason for equality.

I don't care.

I know you don't. It is quite clear. You are actively harming women. But as long as you are alright Jack.

Sometimes I meet a man who seems nice normal and professional at work. Then later I see that all fly out the window as he falls over himself to suck up to the young, attractive intern - and I think, nope, they are all pathetic.

Are you really trying to say that it is only disadvantaged men who are doing the violence?

I'm not saying it's only. It must be a big factor though. You only have to look at the rates of illiteracy and learning disabilities within the prison population. Take these out of the equation and then see what you are left with.

It's a widely held principle that gang culture exists where teens, usually male but not always, lack strong family ties and a sense of belonging. The gangs fill that void.

These problems aren't affecting rich middle class kids with advantages are they?

PS. I hate my ex-husband though. He's evil. Proper psycho. Not because he's a man but because he's a twat. If he was a woman he'd still be a twat. Just a female one.

Or - the prison population could be because working class men are more likely to be sent to prison. Don't you realise that?
I can't be bothered with you Weetabix. Any moment now you're going to blame the mothers for not keeping families together.

But why does male disadvantage have to come up on a thread about how women feel about men because of the way they have been treated by men.

Can you really only see male problems? Do you not see the girls being trafficked? Porn? Rape stats. DV stats. Gender pay gap stats. Why are you choosing to beat on about male on male problems instead of acknowledging the huge issues that face women. Why? How can you do that with a straight face?

A lot of men remain free despite their crimes against women. You only need to look st rape conviction stats for that. How many DV perpetrators go to prison or are even convicted?

Oh, and just to clarify, a very wealthy, middle-class one. Part of the problem IMO. Note to self: never marry someone with lots more money than you if you want to be treated as an equal!

Weetabix-why don’t disadvantaged women commit violent crimes?

The men who are being disadvantaged are in that position because of other men. All the more reason for equality.
And I said, several pages back (selective hearing is a bugger isn't it?) that where does that end? Where do you break the cycle?

A boy grows up with an abusive father. Sees his dad beat his mum, beats him. Dad leaves home eventually. Mum struggles to support the children on her own.

Boy grows up. Meets a woman. They have a child. He doesn't know how to parent. Gets into trouble, goes to prison. They split up. Woman meets someone else. That relationship breaks down.

That child grows up...

Where does the blame lay? If we agree it's with the man, which one? And how do we stop it just continuing from 1 generation to the next?

Does it help anyone at all to just blame it on men? That's not going to change anything for all the kids growing up in poverty now, who are missing education for all sorts of reasons or for boys growing up without any man to teach them what it means to be a decent man is it? How do you help those children?

Working class men are more likely to be sent to prison

Exactly. If you’re a rich white man you can pretty much get away with murder. Just ask poor Natalie Connoly’s family.

Why don’t disadvantaged women commit violent crime?

So your suggestion is what? That women have to solve the problem created by the people who are oppressing them?

So many women are fighting daily just to stay alive at the hands of men. Its a bit rich to come on this thread and point out men's problems and then say we can't blame them for it because they ended up losing out from lack of equality too.

Women have been bearing the brunt and mopping up the tears for too long. I'm done now. You are simply ridiculous.

Can you really only see male problems?

No. But that is how the conversation was steered, by the poster announcing that all men were....

why don’t disadvantaged women commit violent crimes?

Women do commit violent crimes, not at the rate that men do though which I guess is simply due to biology - women tend to be smaller and weaker.

I can't be bothered with you Weetabix.

Err, ok then. It's not compulsory.

sheepsheep

Don't do anything to try and change it then.

I'll do what I'm doing and my husband and son will carry on working with disadvantaged kids in the hope that maybe they can make a difference but you just carry on bemoaning what a waste of space men are. Cos that'll change everything.

One of the reason many men grow up to be violent with a hatred of women, may have something to do with the statistic that little boys are statistically more likely to be spanked/hit than little girls, and that those administering the discipline are more often mothers.

You have no idea what I do. How odd. Really. Just stranger and stranger every time you post.

And for fucks sake its not up to women to change men's shitty behaviour.

Yay! Just about got my bingo card now!

For those interested here is a citation:

www.livescience.com/1257-study-reveals-spanked.html

Its a bit rich to come on this thread and point out men's problems and then say we can't blame them for it because they ended up losing out from lack of equality too.

And yes of course because a pre school boy is totally taking advantage of male privilege as is responsible for the actions of his father. He can't possibly be a victim and then continue to suffer from that into adulthood. No, silly me.

Does it help anyone at all to just blame it on men?

So your post highlights male problems - man beating his wife; man abandoning his familiy but you don't think we should identify those as a male problem?

Why is he beating his wife? Why is he abandoning his children? Why isn't it his responsibility to break the cycle for the next generation?

I grew up in an abusive family. Do you know what I did? Did I repeat the same behaviours with my children? No. I didn't have a good parenting role model. I didn't see how to be a 'good mum' and, therefore, know how to be one. I just worked it out for myself. Why are you absolving these men of their responsibility?

OP I agree with you.
10 years ago I would have thought you were a man hater and probably rolled my eyes.
You are right though. I don’t think I know one couple who have equal responsibilities over wife work, and where there isn’t a power imbalance in favour of the man. It’s insidious and difficult to spot as we’re so conditioned to this being the norm.

It’s remarkably common for men and women to think that talking about this, and male violence, is dangerous because it’s generalisation and is accusing men of being shit.
Well right now I’m happy to confirm that I strongly believe that lots of men are shit, and as someone early in this thread pointed out, if men wanted to sort out these issues of violence, sleazy porn-soaked attitudes to sex and women, viewing women largely as second class citizens, they could. Refusing to acknowledge it because of generalisation is little better than a shutdown. It’s not generalisation, it’s bloody obvious what’s going on.

The truth is this behaviour is encouraged. Victim blaming, seeing women as objects in porn and prostitution, glass ceiling, cotton ceiling, the current trans ideology that threatens to erase what being a woman or girl is, and the risks that go hand in hand with being female. Men do not face any of this. Boys will be boys, men will be tempted, men will be promoted, men will not be threatened by transmen in their spaces, men will carry on getting ridiculously light sentences for horrifically violent sex-gone-wrong. I hope to god that more women will open their eyes and start to expect more for themselves and their daughters, and that men will realise that their actions and just seeing women as equals could make a massive difference to everyone.

Why are you absolving these men of their responsibility?

I'm not absolving them. If they are in a position to do better then they should do.

If they've gone off the rails and ended up dead or in prison they're not going to have much chance to do better are they?

Women make monumental cock ups too. Why are they seen as victims? Why don't we question why women continue to repeat the same mistake over and over? Do we understand that sometimes people aren't able to repair their own lives?