Posie Parker in the USA

[lucydo]

I am aware that there already long threads on this, but would anyone mind just giving me the basic information about what so many people are objecting to? Is it just that she has attended an event run by a Right Wing organisation? Or is there more?
It just looks like a pile-on by left-wingers on my twitter feed.
In all events, it's a TRA dream - divide and rule.
Again, before anyone flames me, I know that there are 2 long threads on this, but I gave up the will to read them after people going on about breakfasts for post after post.

But from the comments on here, it is clear that there has been a definite change in the demographic of this site. If you mention the right-wing aspect, you now get 'but we ARE right-wing'. Which of course is allowed, but it's not the sort of group that I thought I was conversing with at all.

Funky You are deliberately misrepresenting MN FWR.
You have misrepresented Dr Julia Long's speech.

It seems increasingly apparent that you are intenton on disrupting and/or misrepresenting women.

Its worth being aware of posts which are 'pouring petrol' on disagreements and arguments between women.

There will of course be people and groups who would like to encourage divisions amongst women. For their gain.

I think there’s a comment on this thread about how more GC women are right than left wing

Not sure how you are defining right and left wing here, but religious organisations that believe that there is a right and a wrong way to be female and male are not gender critical.

Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy in behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like, including all the women you don't want to be around, including all the women who used to be your best friends whom you don't want anything to do with anymore. It doesn't matter who the individual women are. They all have the same vulnerability to rape, to battery, as children to incest. Poorer women have more vulnerability to prostitution, which is basically a form of sexual exploitation that is intolerable in an egalitarian society, which is the society we are fighting for.
Andrea Dworkin

R0wantrees

"Spectator USA article by Cockburn", It's excellent isn't it.

The panel was brilliant and talked s lot more, in the first segment, about trans men than trans women. Something we rarely hear.

No one needs to 'lie down with' the right to join forces on one issue!

Americans, by which I mean people who live in the United States, are incredibly juvenile about social change. Robin Morgan called it “ejaculatory politics”: if it doesn’t happen right away it doesn’t happen. The Women’s Movement in this country has all the same characteristics as the culture that we live in, short-term gratification, personal fulfilment, personal advancement, and yes, coming out as a lesbian can get in the way of that. Liberals and left-wing men have recolonised women around the fear of the right. This troubles me - it makes me feel like we’re really suckers.
Andrea Dworkin

Reposting as some I'm sure would like to continue to derail /distract and this article provides context:

R0wantrees Fri 01-Feb-19 01:49:48
Spectator USA article by Cockburn
.Terfs take America…
What happened when British female rights activists went to Washington?.
Cockburn
(extract)
"Today, Cockburn received a phone call from Posie.

Posie and Julia had been back to the Hill, meeting with more Congress people, when they’d stumbled upon a congressional hearing organized by transgender ideologues. They then spotted Sarah McBride. McBride is a transgender activist – born a man, but who presents as a woman – who, as national press secretary for the Human Rights Campaign lobbies the government to advance the Equality Act.

McBride had just met with Rep. Joe Kennedy and there was a film crew nearby. On behalf of every woman, parent and child suffering under the madness of gender identity ideology and ignored by the mainstream media – Posie and Julia took their chance confronted McBride.

They ventured forth…

Posie explained her thinking to Cockburn. ‘I thought: When am I going to get this opportunity again to talk someone so powerful in the business of lobbying?…In this culture of silence bringing this issue into the public consciousness can never be counterproductive…I will take my lead from the mothers who are facing the catastrophic mutilation and irreversible damage to their daughters’ bodies.’

The consequence, inevitably, was that this was then spun into a ‘transphobic ambush’ narrative. HuffPost ran a story with the headline, ‘2 Women Disrupt Meeting To Harass Transgender Activist In Appalling Video’. Gay Star News went with, ‘Shocking video shows women barging into meeting and harassing trans woman’.

Was this harassment? The ‘two women’ don’t think so.

‘I am bewildered by the characterization of us being in a position of power and influence so that our questions are being called harassment. We were in the corridors of the Senate building in the land of free speech. That doesn’t square! Questions cannot be harassment’, Posie said.

She added, ‘I didn’t wear a mask. I didn’t have a baseball in trans remembrance colors. I didn’t say I want to punch anybody. I didn’t call him names. I didn’t swear at him. I didn’t intimidate him physically. I didn’t threaten violence. I didn’t commit violence. I asked a man pertinent questions about his lobbying.’

Admittedly, their behavior wasn’t very polite. Cockburn pointed this out, but Julia took a dim view of such criticism.

‘I think politeness is irrelevant here. This man is championing a law that means that men will have increased access to the most vulnerable women in prisons, shelters, sports, education establishments … he’s championing the end of women’s sex-based rights. He’s also championing terrible hormone regimes and surgeries for children.

Posie, who is pro-choice, added: ‘Most of those critics would have no issue if I’d gone in a room with Mike Pence and asked him why he disagrees with abortion in aggressive terms. I could have verbally assaulted him with bad language, and everybody would think it was great. Yet women who purport to be in opposition to gender ideology tend to uphold it with their double standards, as if a powerful lobbyist is somehow vulnerable if they identify as a woman.’ (continues)
[spectator.us/terfs-take-america/

Funky, no doubt you have been around longer than many, and have better Radfem credentials.

However...

the self-ID issue has the scope to affect all women, whether right, left, rich, poor, black, balck, white, religious or not.

You may prefer that FWR is an echo chamber where only the pure are allowed to post. You may prefer that discussion only happened amongst left wing groups of women, and other women (the majority) are excluded. You may prefer that left wing political concerns are prioritised over GRA reform.

But sorry. For some reason the past few days these board seem to have been inhabited by a bunch of posters who know better, and who seem to want to control what individuals post. And that any push back is evidence of a "change in tone". Perhaps Britains left wing need to realise that if they are to be effective they need to listen and to work with others.

I think we need a new term. Radfemsplaining?! And from recent evidence it is more arrogant and annoying than mansplaining.

While some of us run around with our knickers in a twist at the absolute horror of right wing women thinking it's okay to fight for their rights in democratic countries, rather than surrendering their views on women's rights to whatever left wing women say they are...

... can we please remember that fundamentalist genderism is a hyper capitalist, ultra libertarian right wing ideology?

Not the fault of either left wing or right women that the leaders of the current iteration of the left is thick as mince and can't recognise a right wing ideology privileging members of extant power groups when it sees one.

Unsure why some commenters here think it's heresy to criticise a regressive, authoritarian left and not feel bound to comply to it from either a leftist or a rightist perspective.

(I say this as an actual leftist, not one of the plastic ones who are currently melting at the least sign of pluralism.)

Liberals and left-wing men have recolonised women around the fear of the right. This troubles me - it makes me feel like we’re really suckers.
Andrea Dworkin

You might want to pretend that’s not the case and justify calling a feminist working tirelessly for human rights a cunt and mock other people’s appearance, but I think it will get harder and harder to convince yourself that it’s for feminist causes

You should really work on your use of the word you

As its seems to suggest that you think that I PERSONALLY believe that stuff

And YOU have no idea what I believe

Regardless of the ins and outs of what Posie Parker has or hasn't done, the idea that 'right wing' women on Mumsnet have nothing to contribute to conversations about women's rights is astounding.

Apart from anything else, it's pretty clear that many women in the UK voted for both Brexit and the Tories. Are they to be included, or does 'intersectionality' only extend to some?

Feminists must fight for everything and everyone, unless they are Tory scum?

It’s not about ‘dividing woman’ not everything is about tearing you down. People condoning posies actions are doing that without any ‘outside help’ from what I can see.
It’s debate and discussion.
I understand perfectly well that the meeting in the USA was r.e trans issues and nothing to do with the anti-woman agenda that the people they met have.
The point is that ‘is it right to be teaming up with anti-woman protestors because they share the same views on trans people, albeit nost likely with different reasons behind their view?’

Where would the line be drawn? Or is there no line? As long as they don’t want ‘trans rights’ for whatever reason, theyre on our side?

The ultimate aim in all of this is to protect woman’s rights, so why is teaming up with people who want to strip those rights away anyway, being condoned?

That is what I want to know, and so far a lot of people do seem to be pussyfooting around the point and instead stating that the questions being asked to ‘divide woman’, no the question is being asked because this is a discussion.

Regardless of the ins and outs of what Posie Parker has or hasn't done, the idea that 'right wing' women on Mumsnet have nothing to contribute to conversations about women's rights is astounding.

Very, very, very telling, some people's sudden preoccupations, isn't it?

I have finally managed to catch up and see the video of PP and JL thanks to the link in a thread, and honestly I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the hoohaa.

PP and JL interrupted a lobbyist in a public place and asked them some (important and valid) questions. They were ignored and wanted to get a response. No more than is done by a group of news reporters trying to get a quote, and this was done genuinely because they want to talk about the issues. Mildly rude if about something trivial but not for serious political stuff. It was a couple of minutes of mildly provoking and on-topic questions about a valid political issue. Nothing more.

I've been in more confrontational situations about car parking.

I've also spoken up in so many tough situations and didn't think I was particularly unusual, but by this reaction maybe I am. If I wasn't in an insecure situation with an ill dependent I would be speaking up too, and I will and do if I come across this directly. Soooo many would hate me it seems!!! I'm a true uppity woman!!! But for gods sake, get a grip people. When did everything become so sanitised and controlled? The condemnation of PP is straight out of the Handmaids' Tale. No wonder the world is so ripe for an ideological take-over.

Women (and humans) speaking up has to look like this. This is grass roots activism. Not sitting back and waiting your turn (that will never come), making an appointment, or being uber-polite or meek. It was a moment to seize about something truly and hugely important. A more respectful opponent would recognise that this stuff matters and respond differently. But the trans juggernaut does not respond with respect or debate does it. It has the privilege of going largely unchallenged and bloody well mowing women down. Hence the need to engage directly.

Its just normal when stuff matters. In politics surely this is bread and butter.

I have no idea why anyone would need to condemn it. I have not read any tweets from JB or anyone so cant speak to that. But oh boo hoo, some women were mildly confrontational in a political environment. Aaaaaaand?

The ultimate aim in all of this is to protect woman’s rights, so why is teaming up with people who want to strip those rights away anyway, being condoned?

Oh do give it up, Early.

Stop trying to control women and what they can or can't think. Stop trying to conflate a pluralist perspective with slavish devotion to every word and deed.

WE. SEE. YOU.

PP and JL said the same things, asked the same questions, that GC women do every day online. Are we just not supposed to say it in public where we might actually get heard?

Yes, the Karen White case was horrific, but Universal Credit encourages women to stay in abusive relationships, or in extreme cases forces them into prostitution

The housing of a male in female prison estate with a long history of predatory violent and sexual offences against women and children is not just 'horrific'.

Vulnerable female prisoners were sexually assaulted. Vulnerable female prisoners were locked in by the state with this dangerous male, forced to share showers etc.

White is not alone in being a dangerous male housed in the female prison estate as a consequence of lobbying the Ministry of Justice by trans rights activists.

Vulnerable female prisoners safety, dignity and privacy has been compromised.

They are at risk.

See Anne Ruzylo's speech at We Need To Talk About Women Manchester 2018 (from 28:00):

None of this precludes identifying the serious risks to vulnerable women of Universal credit and those males who perpetrate the prositution of women.
The State is failing to protect vulnerable women and children.
Some males are exploiting this.

ufus i have been here a while and there has been a definite change in tone. You might want to pretend that’s not the case and justify

I think youll also see i was talking about the whole of mumsnet

Not FWR specifically

I have no idea why anyone would need to condemn it. I have not read any tweets from JB or anyone so cant speak to that. But oh boo hoo, some women were mildly confrontational in a political environment. Aaaaaaand?

this. I think what Posie and Julia did was fantastic

and I'm not interested in any drama any one wants to manufacture around this

I'm saving my energy for living my real life while trying to fight the current attack on women's safety, privacy and dignity

The point is that ‘is it right to be teaming up with anti-woman protestors because they share the same views on trans people, albeit nost likely with different reasons behind their view?’

Where would the line be drawn? Or is there no line? As long as they don’t want ‘trans rights’ for whatever reason, theyre on our side?

Earlywalker That you want this to be the focus is clear.
Women are not required to answer to your demands.

and I'm not interested in any drama any one wants to manufacture around this

I'm saving my energy for living my real life while trying to fight the current attack on women's safety, privacy and dignity

This ^^

There are people who will gain from 'pouring petrol' and encouraging divisions.

Some people also benefit when women's energies are used up.

We all have choices whether or not to be drawn in.

and this from lang

While some of us run around with our knickers in a twist at the absolute horror of right wing women thinking it's okay to fight for their rights in democratic countries, rather than surrendering their views on women's rights to whatever left wing women say they are...

... can we please remember that fundamentalist genderism is a hyper capitalist, ultra libertarian right wing ideology? ultra right wing

Not the fault of either left wing or right women that the leaders of the current iteration of the left is thick as mince and can't recognise a right wing ideology privileging members of extant power groups when it sees one.

Unsure why some commenters here think it's heresy to criticise a regressive, authoritarian left and not feel bound to comply to it from either a leftist or a rightist perspective.

Right wing women, left wing women, nice women and nasty women are all entitled to fight to keep the word woman as meaning an adult human female, excluding males. Doesn't matter what comes next, fundamental truths need fighting for.

HOW have I misrepresented Julia’s speech? I mentioned some things she said in that speech. I did not make comments about the overall contents of it. Are you saying she did not say these things?

womensliberationfront.org/posie-parker-in-the-house/

Everyone needs to read

Why is it always that if you have a different viewpoint that it leads to accusations of telling people what to do and dictating? You’re doing the same back to me.