Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Posie Parker in the USA

436 replies

lucydo · 31/01/2019 09:43

I am aware that there already long threads on this, but would anyone mind just giving me the basic information about what so many people are objecting to? Is it just that she has attended an event run by a Right Wing organisation? Or is there more?
It just looks like a pile-on by left-wingers on my twitter feed.
In all events, it's a TRA dream - divide and rule.
Again, before anyone flames me, I know that there are 2 long threads on this, but I gave up the will to read them after people going on about breakfasts for post after post.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
McTufty · 31/01/2019 19:19

I don't think that this issue is the major one facing women

Well no but it is important and it is linked. The ideology has at its heart that biological sex doesn’t really matter. I think biological sex is the basis of the many horrific things happening to women both here and abroad - interference with reproductive rights, honour killings, period poverty, menstruation huts to name but a few - and if an ideology which minimises the importance of this gains ground then that has implications above and beyond the immediate consequences of self ID. Male in female violence is a major issue, and recording that minority of violent trans women as female offenders matters a lot. So this issue is linked to the bigger issues too in my opinion.

The immediate consequences of self ID aren’t nothing though. This has resulted in women being raped eg Karen White.

Annasgirl · 31/01/2019 19:20

And some of us do think it is the most important issue facing women

Clianthe · 31/01/2019 19:24

Hi, long-time lurker, here. Delurking to give my point of view as an American. I'm not sure if everyone is aware of the fact that there is no organized left in the US. Both our major parties are right wing and the Greens (our only nominally left Party) are too busy arguing over which end of the egg to break to be of much use. This leaves us with one of two choices: either work with misogynists who would legitimatize paedophilia (porn-sick dude-bros) or work with misogynists who want to protect children (as property). Since nobody besides a few radical feminist cares about women, we're making due with what we've got.
I would also remind everyone that Andrea Dworkin worked with convicted - and admitted - rapist Eldridge Cleaver.
That said, I thank all the women who are actively trying to stop transgender ideology from being enshrined in law on both sides of the Atlantic.

McTufty · 31/01/2019 19:32

clianthe

Is there much opposition to it there? It also seems to me that trans people potentially face far greater discrimination there but I might be wrong?

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 31/01/2019 19:39

It really is not the be all and end all compared to other horrific state policies such as Universal Credit or reproductive rights.

If 'woman' means whoever says they are a woman and statistics become meaningless because both sexes are recorded as 'women' then we can't actually meaningfully discuss how these things affect women (XX women). Erasing our language is a way of erasing all our concerns and our activism. And we can't actually meaningfully discuss (with statistics) how Universal Credit possibly is disadvantaging women (XX) more than men (XY) because 'women' now includes anyone XY who says so.

Miranda Yardley has written on this subject very eloquently - if I have time I'll look up the link and post it later.

LangCleg · 31/01/2019 19:39

I also would question someone who thinks that things like help for DV and provision of safe abortion is something that they can compromise on 'for the greater good'.

Well, isn't it a relief that absolutely nobody is suggesting you do this or is doing this themselves.

The beginnings of a political alliance on a single US bill has been announced, with all participants stressing to their supporters that other issues will be pursued separately and antagonistically.

So you can rest easy.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 31/01/2019 19:40

And some of us do think it is the most important issue facing women

More important than e.g. domestic violence, low rape convictions, the unfair distribution of caring labour, workplace harassment, restriction of reproductive rights, FGM, forced marriage?

Yes, the Karen White case was horrific, but Universal Credit encourages women to stay in abusive relationships, or in extreme cases forces them into prostitution.

And as you feel this is the most important issue, would you be happy if the law were changed to stop recognising gender reassignment as a protected characteristic, but it also stopped recognising rights based sexual orientation for instance? Would that be a compromise you would be willing to make? Because to me, seeing Julia and Posie's actions, it is clear that they would make that trade-off, as long as it stopped self-ID. They don't think being transgender is a thing, so why should there need to be any rights?

McTufty · 31/01/2019 19:44

funky

There is no suggestion of removing gender reassignment as a protected characteristic. This prevents trans people being discriminated against for being trans. I don’t know anyone who disagrees with this.

The battleground is more around removing sex as a protected characteristic and replacing it with gender.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 31/01/2019 19:47

There is no suggestion of removing gender reassignment as a protected characteristic. This prevents trans people being discriminated against for being trans. I don’t know anyone who disagrees with this.

Really? Because Julia Long for one has certainly made it clear on numerous occasions that she does not believe there is any such thing as being transgender. It is just a bunch of perverts with fetishes. Posie has said similar. So how can this be squared by wanting to retain gender reassignment as a protected characteristic?

McTufty · 31/01/2019 19:49

Oh I see, you mean JL and PP specifically? I thought you meant GC feminism more generally, and I have never heard that suggested. If PP or JL have suggested that, shame on them.

R0wantrees · 31/01/2019 19:57

This is lecture by Julia Long from last year.
Its worth listening to her actual words rather than other people's summary of her position not least as it describes her work and log term focus which has been violence against women and girls.

'Transgenderism & Lesbian Erasure'

Bluestitch · 31/01/2019 19:57

Chelsea Clinton is getting a hell of a lot of pushback on twitter. Women are angry and this stunt has raised a discussion that they were being denied.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 31/01/2019 20:03

Oh I see, you mean JL and PP specifically? I thought you meant GC feminism more generally, and I have never heard that suggested. If PP or JL have suggested that, shame on them.

Yes, I meant them. And I know that on here and on twitter, there are plenty who agree wholeheartedly with that, sadly. Julia Long did a whole talk, which was essentially going through a bunch of photos of trans women saying 'here's a man in a dress with nail-varnish' etc, as well as saying that because there is no such thing as transgender, there is no such thing as transphobia.

AnneHutchinson · 31/01/2019 20:04

Trans people have greater federal employment protection than gays and lesbians do, currently., under a Supreme Court decision Hopkins v. Price-Waterhouse which ruled in favor of a woman not promoted to partner for not dressing femininely enough. Lower courts and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission have intrepreted that decision to extend to gender presentation by trans employees: if a woman cannot be discriminated against for not conforming to gendered expectations in appearance, neither can anyone else.

There is NO federal law against discriminating against gays and lesbians in employment and housing, though many states have enacted such laws.

Similarly, many states have enacted laws in support of gender identity self id -- mostly along the west coast.

Women's equality was only included in the Civil Rights Act as a joke -- a congressman thought it would be amusing to add "sex" to the list of protected characteristics and would help torpedo passage of the bill. He was wrong. Title VII and TItle IX to the Civil Rights Act are the only laws extending equal rights to women in the US. We do not have Constitutional equality, although we have the right to vote, because the Equal Rights Amendment wasn't ratified by enough states. There simply are not robust legal protections for women in the US.

Nancy Pelosi's Equality Act would add sexual orientation and gender identity to the list of protected characteristics under the Civil Rights Act. What we are seeing, already, are rulings in the lower courts that gender identity presents a greater burden to the trans student than sex discrimination does to female students, and therefore female students must yield rights to privacy etc. to trans students.

The Boyertown case is proceeding through the courts, and there is hope the Supreme Court will hear it and rule that "sex" does not mean "gender identity" and that females have rights to bodily privacy in schools.

(it's very important to understand, too, that both the right to birth control and the right to abortion in the US are predicated on the Supreme Court's ruling that people have a right to bodily privacy. If this right is undermined by rulings in favor of transgirls, it could have spilloever effects regarding the entire premise of the right to bodily privacy, just as the constant refrain that men get pregnant too can have spilloever effects into anti-pregnancy discrimination law and regarding the rights of men over a pregnancy.)

If Pelosi's Equality Act is passed, it will still be illegal to discriminate against women in favor of men in employment, education, and housing. But it will NOT be illegal to count transgirls and transwomen as women for the purpose of demonstrating one has not discriminated against girls and women. And women will lose ALL female set-asides and safe spaces, iincluding prisons and refuges, because we do not have any federal law allowing for certain provisions of sex segregation where proportionate to achieve a legitimate aim.

Already, under the premise that gender identity = sex, we have males winning girls state athletic championships in two states. Since those championships are a route to college scholarships, this is a direct financial hit to females. Expect more of the same, as word of the viability of this move spreads to parents of sons.

OvaHere · 31/01/2019 20:34

Well said Anne. This is why it's the most important issue - because it underpins everything else.

If we lose the right to our biological sex class it is like pulling a Jenga piece from the bottom of the stack. Nothing above it has any stability.

Earlywalker · 31/01/2019 20:38

And some of us do think it is the most important issue facing women
Hate to say it but to me this view always sounds like you have white middle class privilidge bursting out of the seams.

Poor rape conviction rapes, benefit cuts, employment issues, 1/5 woman have been sexually assaulted, 1/4 woman experience domestic abuse, inadequate health care provisions for woman, period poverty.

Let’s take it worldwide and discuss the fact that woman can be stoned for being raped, be denied access to education, forced to marry before they’ve even reached puberty, FGM.

Just to name a few.

R0wantrees · 31/01/2019 20:47

And I know that on here and on twitter, there are plenty who agree wholeheartedly with that, sadly. Julia Long did a whole talk, which was essentially going through a bunch of photos of trans women saying 'here's a man in a dress with nail-varnish' etc, as well as saying that because there is no such thing as transgender, there is no such thing as transphobia.

Funky this is often referred to by TRAs who sometimes have edited parts or have not seen the whole speech.
It was given at the event after Maria Machlachlan was assaulted at Speaker's Corner by T. Wolf in 2017.

Julia Long:
'What is Gender?' Speakers' Corner event,' 13 September 2017

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 31/01/2019 20:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Oxytocindeficient · 31/01/2019 20:53

Hate to say it but to me this view always sounds like you have white middle class privilidge bursting out of the seams.

Oh that old chestnut. Pretty derogatory and inaccurate. It’s a nice way to dismiss people’s comcerns though huh. If you can’t see how this affects all those issues, that’s not our problem. Rape affects all colours and all classes. It will also be a big problem if men are allowed in our spaces. Honestly this tactic of weaponising ‘white middle class women’ is pretty gross to me.

sackrifice · 31/01/2019 20:53

Poor rape conviction rapes, benefit cuts, employment issues, 1/5 woman have been sexually assaulted, 1/4 woman experience domestic abuse, inadequate health care provisions for woman, period poverty

If we cannot define women, how can these be seen as problems that women face?

Oxytocindeficient · 31/01/2019 20:55

Re, Domestic violence, what about refuges? They’re affected by this, as we know.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 31/01/2019 21:03

R0wan, I watched the whole thing from start to finish. She definitely says in it that she does not think transgender is a real thing and she goes through a long list of photos saying 'here's a man'. And surely her slides and talk were prepared without her knowing that Maria was going to be assaulted? I don't see the relevance that this happened earlier the same day.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 31/01/2019 21:05

Re, Domestic violence, what about refuges? They’re affected by this, as we know.

That is true and I think refuges and prisons need to be single sex. But I still cannot see how this is the biggest issue facing women. If you think it is, you have very little awareness of what is happening- whether that is because you have middle class privilege or some other reason.

Earlywalker · 31/01/2019 21:07

If men want to get in on issues facing woman then fine, maybe people will pay attention more when it affects men.

Do you seriously believe that allowing transwoman to become ‘legally woman’ will mean that all laws currently protecting woman’s issues will suddenly disappear?

That if we can’t decide what a woman is suddenly abortion will become illegal? Or that we’ll no longer have protection with breastfeeding etc? Do you think judges are that stupid?

If it ever comes close to things like that, I’m there with you. But for now there’s a lot of hypothetical scaremongering and a lot of disregard for actual issues facing woman.

Yes transwoman being in refuges can be an issue, nowhere close to the actual issue of the domestic abuse that put them there though.

R0wantrees · 31/01/2019 21:10

Funkyfunkybeat12 If you've watched the whole speech and only taken those points, you didn't really concentrate.
Perhaps some confirmation bias at work?

Swipe left for the next trending thread