Posie Parker in the USA

[lucydo]

I am aware that there already long threads on this, but would anyone mind just giving me the basic information about what so many people are objecting to? Is it just that she has attended an event run by a Right Wing organisation? Or is there more?
It just looks like a pile-on by left-wingers on my twitter feed.
In all events, it's a TRA dream - divide and rule.
Again, before anyone flames me, I know that there are 2 long threads on this, but I gave up the will to read them after people going on about breakfasts for post after post.

Not taking no for an answer or not even asking, is a fucking big deal to me.

To me too I feel exactly the same. It's a matter of my right to consent being taken away again. It's a matter of being coerced and gaslighted and controlled again.

the board seems very fraught today

this is what I'm bearing in mind before I hit 'Post Message'

No one achknowledged mine oxy until italian and then rufus said something.

I posed my statement ‘as someone who’s experienced a,b,c I find x,y, z offensive. You responded to it by quoting x,y,z and saying ‘I don’t care, so what’ .

I was then called out for not responding to your abuse, when the majority of posters ignored mine also. You got flowers, I got more verbal abuse. One person called out what you said and that was it. thank you yetanothersparticus
To be honest I don’t care if you care about my abuse anyway, I don’t need your sympathy. I was stating that as someone who’s experienced a lot of shit in my life that mainly affects woman, I feel there are bigger issues facing woman and find the statement that the trans issue is the most important issue facing woman, offensive.

I posed my question about rape as someone who has been raped. I’ve been very open about that on these boards. Ive also had 2 abortions, one was as a result of rape and I’ll tell you now that as a teenager going into that clinic in Richmond, miles away from my home having experienced the worst ordeal of my life, the people outside telling me that my fetus can feel pain and knows it’s going to die made an awful situation so much more awful.

Had I not had access to that abortion, I don’t know what I’d have done. I think it’s very rocky territory getting involved with these people who want to strip those rights away.

I obviously am sorry for what you experienced, the actions that woman suffer at the hands of men needs to end. You may feel differently about your experience, but to me the blame for the event and my feelings and trauma after lay solely with the man who felt his right to sex was more important than my right to walk home without being raped. A transwoman in a refuge afterwards may have traumatised you, I agree it’s a dangerous thought, my point is that the main issue is the initial assault, in my view if the assault had not have happened, the intense trauma faced by men/TW after would be a moot point (for me atleast)

You’re free to disagree, makes no difference to me. I just thought I’d come back to clarify, but I won’t post on these boards anymore, think I’ve found my breaking point now.

I responded to your horrid question Early, with my rape story, you responded with no acknowledgement of it and straight into the being offended about what women think is the most important issue comment.

You can hardly complain about not being acknowledged if your response to me is a manipulative post which doesn’t respond to mine.

For anyone previously accusing me of being rude to Early, yeah I’m gonna be rude to anyone, victim of abuse or not, that thinks it appropriate to discuss what fears rape victims have are most important. The answer is: they all are.

To be crystal clear, I stand with all women on this issue of self ID and the appropriation of our words. Whether I like them or not. I also stand with all abused women, whether I like them or not. But i will absolutely angrily challenge anything I think is disrespectful to rape victims regardless of who is responsible, and if another victim responds to my horror at that question, with no acknowledgement of my rape, then I don’t feel obliged to extend kindness to them.

and find the statement that the trans issue is the most important issue facing woman, offensive.

That's your issue. Not anyone else's. Don't tell other people what they should prioritise. IMO it is, and I also say that as a rape survivor and survivor of DV. It is fundamental to women as a class to be able to name our oppression and what is responsible for it.

Bernard interesting, but I don't think MN women have any particular unity except in not wanting harm to come to children and women. And that's going to be a difficult thing to distract us from however hard they try not least because a lot of us have actual children who are far more important to us than any 'identity'. And that's where I believe Posie is coming from too, whatever you might think of her tactics.

think I’ve found my breaking point now

You've found it quite a few times so far, yet you seem to mend pretty quickly.

(and by you I mean 'one' i.e. whatever an individual thinks rather than anyone in particular)

YetAnotherSpartacus "You know well enough that I do this because you have been here for at least the same length of time as I have and using the same name. Perhaps what we need to think about are the reasons why so many girls (many of whom are lesbian, so it seems) identify as boys and perhaps we need to consider where homophobia and gender fundamentalism comes from - and came from even before the trans genderists - one of the major places it comes from is the conservative Christian right (at least in the US which is the subject of this thread)."

Firstly do I do not remember everyone's names or views. So my apologies for not knowing your position on things. I was not purposely being forgetful.

Secondly, several people seem to be mentioning the right to not be pregnant without acknowledging the right to hang on to one's fertility.

Thirdly, I do agree with you about wondering where it comes from. But in my extended family we have a female, brought up in s feminist environment (not fundamentalist Christian) who identifies as a boy. So that issue is very close to my heart.

Earlywalker I am so sorry about what happened to you.

Honestly, as womem we have so much more in common than apart.

Can I say in the nicest possible way I think you got hold of the wrong end of the stick. I think all our emotions are running high.

We really must find ways to come together. The 'trans issue' is not one issue, there won't be one response. But we must find a way forward together as women protecting women and girls and we are not forgetting a the other issues.

We can all add value, we can all add our voices. That's why I like Posy. She's not like me! I'm way too soft.

But whatever has happened to women here we can move on together. Those who can work together will rub off on each other.

Maybe the Heritage Foundation will be transformed!

Perhaps what we need to think about are the reasons why so many girls (many of whom are lesbian, so it seems) identify as boys and perhaps we need to consider where homophobia and gender fundamentalism comes from - and came from even before the trans genderists - one of the major places it comes from is the conservative Christian right (at least in the US which is the subject of this thread).

It's true that the conservative Christian right is homophobic but they aren't the only ones preaching gender fundamentalism. The Christian right has minimal influence in states which have gender identity laws. "you're really a boy (or girl)" and need mutilating surgery and health threatening medication based on stereotypes is celebrated and supported in progressive states. Encouraged even.

I have a lot of respect for the big GC personalities, those left on twitter and those blogging separately elsewhere. The latest spats have disappointed me because rather than stating reasons for disagreement and moving on there's a need to knaw at the wounds and slip into deeper and deeper digs, some of them getting really bloody rude using awful name-calling (on all sides). Maybe it's the way twitter or social media is set up that it's so easy to just post one more riposte when it achieves nothing but division.

The counter seems to be "women don't have to be nice" which is true but it's reducing the debate into playground taunts. We're going to struggle to claim we're "adult" human females if we're acting like 12 year olds.

Personally I think he who sups with the devil should use a long spoon and so whilst I understand the reasons for hooking into the Heritage Foundation it's fundamentally morally wrong - in my opinion - but everyone is entitled to theirs.

I think most people see that difference needn't divide. I was moved by Posie's video and I think she's a force of nature, and whilst I don't agree with everything she does I applaud her courage. I respect Jean's decision not to attend the event, and the work she's done for DV victims is brilliant. Lisa M must have a brain the size of a planet and I always find her work an education - both truly challenging and authentic... None of us are perfect.

Can I just say also I REALLY miss Magdalen Berns's contributions to the debate? Of course I'm mostly hoping she's OK and recovering from her radiotherapy and surgery. Her Stonewall video is my go-to when talking to people about the issues. It's a thing of beauty and the clarity of her rhetoric is second to none.

Can I just say also I REALLY miss Magdalen Berns's contributions to the debate? Of course I'm mostly hoping she's OK and recovering from her radiotherapy and surgery. Her Stonewall video is my go-to when talking to people about the issues. It's a thing of beauty and the clarity of her rhetoric is second to none.
This ^^

Magdalen Berns:
RE: "TERF Wars"... Receipts Please?

My personal perspective as someone who is left leaning.

In addition to anything else in my case I have two issues with this

1. When the week of action was announced (with hashtags) nothing was said of speaking at these events. Initially we were told the trip was about confronting Twitter about misogyny IIRC. This meant that anyone sharing that hashtag became associated with the Heritage Foundation and the their other actions. This has irritated me but I've realised it's mainly my fault for not doing my research properly. Joining a campaign when you have no say in that campaign and there is no accountability probably isn't the best idea. At least in political parties there is party conference etc.
2. I now feel like all of the time I have spent convincing my leftie friends that it is not right wing and exclusionary to oppose trans ideology has been wasted and I'm right back where I started. Of course this won't be an issue for everyone as everyone has a different peer group but my aim was to try to win over people on the left in particular.
3. The definition of the word 'woman' is now associated with the right whereas organisations like Woman's Place were doing a good job of making it a left-wing issue.

To a degree most of this is my fault for not asking the right questions about the campaign in the first place. Luckily I got a bad feeling early on and distanced myself. Still, it's irritating.

Oh, final point. I think it's terrible strategy. Maybe it's good for the US, I don't know but I don't think it's good political strategy here in the UK.

So your lefty friends decide what is right wing via association rather than political analysts? Doesn't sound very lefty to me

Genderism privileges subjectivity over material reality. That is the antithesis of leftist politics.

Political analysis, that should read.

The sudden conflation of UK and US politics does seem to have caused a lot of issues.

This was just posted on a parallel thread by GrinitchSpinach
"Oho! Andrew Sullivan, the prominent gay political commentator, took notice of the Heritage panel:

"It might be a sign of the end-times, or simply a function of our currently scrambled politics, but earlier this week, four feminist activists — three from a self-described radical feminist organization Women’s Liberation Front — appeared on a panel at the Heritage Foundation. Together they argued that sex was fundamentally biological, and not socially constructed, and that there is a difference between women and trans women that needs to be respected.

And it’s true that trans-exclusionary radical feminists or TERFs, as they are known, are one minority that is actively not tolerated by the LGBTQ establishment, and often demonized by the gay community. It’s also true that they can be inflammatory, offensive, and obsessive. But what interests me is their underlying argument, which deserves to be thought through, regardless of our political allegiances, sexual identities, or tribal attachments. Because it’s an argument that seems to me to contain a seed of truth. Hence, I suspect, the intensity of the urge to suppress it.

...

Transgender people pose no threat to us, and the vast majority of gay men and lesbians wholeheartedly support protections for transgender people. But transgenderist ideology — including postmodern conceptions of sex and gender — is indeed a threat to homosexuality, because it is a threat to biological sex as a concept.

We just have to abandon the faddish notion that sex is socially constructed or entirely in the brain, that sex and gender are unconnected, that biology is irrelevant, and that there is something called an LGBTQ identity, when, in fact, the acronym contains extreme internal tensions and even outright contradictions. And we can allow this conversation to unfold civilly, with nuance and care, in order to maximize human dignity without erasing human difference. That requires a certain amount of courage, and one thing I can safely say about that Heritage panel is that the women who spoke had plenty of it.

nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/02/andrew-sullivan-the-nature-of-sex.html

from:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3490776-Women-Stand-Up-in-Washington-D-C?msgid=84618271#84618271

Actually, if you read Datalounge, a LOT of gay men see a threat posed by genderism and specifically a threat to lesbuans from TW "cotton ceiling" rhetoric.

1) When the week of action was announced (with hashtags) nothing was said of speaking at these events. Initially we were told the trip was about confronting Twitter about misogyny IIRC.

When Meghan Murphy spoke during the protest outside Twitter she said that she was filing a lawsuit against Twitter.

Its seems that some aspects of events in Washington have received a massive amount of attention and others more deserving have got a bit lost.

from GrinitchSpinach parallel thread:

"Here is the protest outside Twitter:
m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2366769483443018&id=100003299679086&refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2FD8guU5XQ0R&_rdr

keeponspinning This is what the meeting held at Heritage Foundation was about:

As someone who remembers the days of coathangers and possible bleeds to death in emergency departments it felt to me like a series of valid questions.

It was a disgraceful false binary is what it was. "You've just been raped? That's terrible. So why are you worrying there's a TW in your refuge?"

Has bad thing X happened to you? Why on earth are you worrying about thing Y, which could very well escalate into equally bad or even worse thing Z (but which hasn't happened yet)?

Somewhat ironic that Posie Parker can be condemned for sitting on a platform with an American Christian organisation, when individual American Evangelicals are some of the biggest supporters of TRA ideology for homophobic reasons: they find their teenaged sons are gay, but rationalise it by saying their sons are just their (straight) daughters trapped in a boy's body, and start pushing hormone blockers on them. The sons (already racked with guilt over being gay, which they've been taught is a wicked sin) willingly take that route out of "evil". No TRA has ever rejected these additions to the ranks of TW. Nor has any TRA ever condemned theocratic Iran doing the same thing at state level on an industrial scale; instead Iran is lauded as "progressive" for conducting transition on state healthcare!

If this is willy-waving over being "more left-wing than thou" where is the condemnation of that?

Something like this perhaps needs to be said.

Just as Douglas Murray makes no apology for sitting on a platform with a communist to oppose Islamism, neither should a feminist apologise for sitting om a platform with a mainstream conservative to oppose TRA ideology.