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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Posie Parker in the USA

436 replies

lucydo · 31/01/2019 09:43

I am aware that there already long threads on this, but would anyone mind just giving me the basic information about what so many people are objecting to? Is it just that she has attended an event run by a Right Wing organisation? Or is there more?
It just looks like a pile-on by left-wingers on my twitter feed.
In all events, it's a TRA dream - divide and rule.
Again, before anyone flames me, I know that there are 2 long threads on this, but I gave up the will to read them after people going on about breakfasts for post after post.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
R0wantrees · 01/02/2019 12:35

'We Need To Talk'

'Lierre Keith hosted by WNTT - Washington DC'

R0wantrees · 01/02/2019 12:37

'We Need To Talk'
'Meghan Murphy hosted by WNTT - Washington DC'

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/02/2019 12:37

My opinion put simply - say you’re a woman who’s just been raped. What do you fear the most? What is the biggest issue? The man who did it to you or the transwoman at your refuge?
Say you fell pregnant from that rape and required an abortion, are you more thankful that you have the right to do so? Or would you not mind if you didn’t have rights to have one as long as the person who helped remove those rights, also faught for a transwoman to not perform the internal scan?
Woman’s rights and the issues surrounding them are the most important thing for woman in any situation, even if they do not realise it.
Woman’s rights are far more complex than the transgender movement. We mustn’t forget the real woman who need feminists in their corner, while fighting the straw man

So this is the whole post. I think it poses important questions. Some have been addressed since, at least partially, ie - the supposedly clear boundaries that GC women and right wing Christian fundamentalists have beyond this central issue - but I still think it poses important (rhetorical) questions.

Juells · 01/02/2019 12:40

I’ve said I found it offensive because of the abuse I suffered.
Would you be happy if I said I don’t care that you find the question sickening? Even if your reasons are because of your abuse?

you said she said that you said that she said that you said that she said who on earth could follow this rambling accusation.

R0wantrees · 01/02/2019 12:41

So this is the whole post. I think it poses important questions.

It asks appalling questions of women who have been raped. There are women on this thread and reading for whom this is not a 'hypothetical argument' but a reality with long lasting consequences.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/02/2019 12:41

Not quite...i dont care about the abuse you've suffered though is it

Actually, this is how I read it and still read it - Oxy saying this to Every. Having said that, when I read your post, I mentally put speech quotes around the statement, so I am assuming this is what you meant.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 01/02/2019 12:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/02/2019 12:47

It asks appalling questions of women who have been raped. There are women on this thread and reading for whom this is not a 'hypothetical argument' but a reality with long lasting consequences

The questions are rhetorical and are referring to political and policy responses. We can and do discuss rape and policy responses to rape. The intent of the post was to put the blame at the foot of the male rapist and to ask questions about what we, as feminists, or as women, might want as policies. It sounded a warning against those policies which might support the loss of our rights. The actual poster acknowledged she has also been abused.

R0wantrees · 01/02/2019 12:47

Their words (as always) are important and attempts to silence them (by whatever means should be noted)

for their, read women

Silencing attempts come in many forms, denial, belittling, stonewalling, censoring, derailing etc

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 01/02/2019 12:56

yet

Ive no intention of prolonging this after my next comment as it would be nice to get back to the thread and im conscious im derailing

But i thought the policy on mumsnet is that a comment following a bolded quote relates to just the quoted quote

Not necessarily the whole post....if thats not the case then it needs to be clarified as ive lost count of the posts ive mainly disagreed with but have specifically quoted the bit i think is good

But i have a feeling we are going to need to agree to disagree on this

R0wantrees · 01/02/2019 13:00

The questions are rhetorical and are referring to political and policy responses. We can and do discuss rape and policy responses to rape. The intent of the post was to put the blame at the foot of the male rapist

No the question was posed in such a way to pose a false binary.

Its a common device.

Women who have been raped do not and should not have to consider such a question.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/02/2019 13:02

Not necessarily the whole post....if thats not the case then it needs to be clarified as ive lost count of the posts ive mainly disagreed with but have specifically quoted the bit i think is good

As a veteran marker of too many essays I also know that selected quotes or bits of quotes can misrepresent. I always try and look at the bigger picture to give context.

I suspect we are going to have to agree to disagree too.

Derailing or not, I think that Every had some excellent points to make and in the spirit of real debate designed at optimising our defence of women's rights I think she should have been listened to a little more instead of dismissed. I've thought the same about many women who have spoken up about their reticence at making alliances with the right in what I have read over the last couple of days.

My case is rested. I'm also off for a while.

R0wantrees · 01/02/2019 13:02

As the thread is about events in Washington, its a shame that persistant derails prevent consideration of the speeches and issues raised within them.

OrchidInTheSun · 01/02/2019 13:03

As a rape survivor, it didn't feel like an important rhetorical question. It felt like goody fuckery

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 01/02/2019 13:04

Apologies R0wan ive stopped now honest

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/02/2019 13:04

No the question was posed in such a way to pose a false binary

There was no binary. Just different potential (possibly real) scenarios and questions - and ones that deserve asking given the current context.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/02/2019 13:07

As a rape survivor, it didn't feel like an important rhetorical question. It felt like goody fuckery

As someone who remembers the days of coathangers and possible bleeds to death in emergency departments it felt to me like a series of valid questions.

OldCrone · 01/02/2019 13:08

YetAnotherSpartacus
Have a look at the screenshot in the post by OrchidInTheSun this morning at 05:59. People might have missed it because her post was mainly about Posie.

The screenshot is of a post by the mother of an autistic teenage girl who identifies as transgender and wants to medically transition asap. The only support this woman could find was from Heritage who agreed to host the event. For this woman (a former Democrat who left the party over this issue), this is not a political debate about who's getting into bed with who, it is about her daughter's health and well-being.

Who do you think women like this should turn to, while the left is busy cheering while a teenage boy gets castrated on TV and teenage girls are having mastectomies?

Juells · 01/02/2019 13:09

I've just watched Meghan Murphy on the video linked earlier. She's very good at making her points.

R0wantrees · 01/02/2019 13:11

Summary from Natasha Chart, WoLF (article linked previously)

(extract)
"I can tell our friends and supporters that we and our allies raised these issues with our representatives’ staff, Democrats and Republicans, and with other conservatives we spoke to over the last few days, many of whom had heard the Heritage panel and were deeply moved, both by the stories of the parents and by Julia Beck’s testimony of being ostracized from within her own community. We told them that …

… 13-year-old girls are getting cosmetic mastectomies in this country, and some 14-year-old girls are being put into menopause, also for cosmetic reasons, with seemingly no care for how early loss of ovarian function can shorten one’s lifespan and increase the risk of cardiovascular disease.

… parents can lose their children in some states if they don’t go along with pronoun changes, with puberty blockers, and with cross-sex hormones administered to their children.

… by including gender identity under “conversion therapy” bans, therapists feel they must stop working with patients to explore distress over trauma, abuse, personality disorders, depression, or developmental disorders, as soon as a child says they have a gender identity.

… “informed consent” means a waiver of the right to sue, and the on-demand distribution of powerful hormone treatments without any required checks for contraindicated health conditions.

… clinicians issue indirect suicide threats to worried parents to force them to comply with the destruction of their own minor children’s reproductive organs.

… women in prison are being forced to bunk and shower with violent male offenders, and there’s no way to stop such men being put in with women, in violation of these women’s international human rights, under a sex self-identification standard. We gave them the examples of three violent men in the justice system right now — Michelle Kosilek in MA, Synthia China Blast in NY, and Dana Rivers in CA — who will have the absolute right to be incarcerated with women if the gender identity provisions of the Equality Act are passed into federal law.

… women in homeless and domestic violence shelters are being forced to room and shower with men because the shelters are afraid of either losing federal funding or being sued by angry, entitled men. Vulnerable women have been kicked out of shelters for complaining about being forced to room with men.

… autistic girls are ridiculously over-represented among children and young people claiming a gender identity, and this current rush to sterilize them so they will “look right,” or to tell them that their real problem is that they are “in the wrong body,” is a eugenicist violation of their human rights and an abdication of responsibility by those who should protect them.

… girls in school will have to deal with menstruation in bathrooms where boys are allowed to walk in.

… girls’ and women’s sports are being destroyed, and with them, scholarship and mentorship opportunities for women and girls. (In one of the meetings where we brought up sports, a conservative man we were talking to volunteered on his own that he knew that was a road to college for many girls and he was quite concerned.)

… women and girls will lose the right under self-identification, and the total elimination of sex as a bona fide occupational qualification, to request female medical or intimate care, or a female supervisor for state-mandated urine tests, or a female security officer to pat them down. Conversely, women holding such employment will lose the right under the Equality Act’s gender identity provisions to refuse to perform intimate care or examinations of male clients.

… Muslim women cannot relax or function as if they were in private at all in shelters or accommodations shared with males, many Christian women would be very offended and worried as well, and we have concern for them. But religious exemptions will not protect these women from all these other circumstances, and also secular women like myself do not wish to be forced to undress in front of men or be confronted by unwanted male nudity.

… in the UK, people can be questioned by police for their opinions on these topics, or for calling the removal of children’s genitals “castration,” or for talking about public figures in the gender identity movement who are paid by the government to advocate for the sterilization of children.

… that advocacy for gender identity and the sex industry travel together, and that men who solicit commercial sex and share porn of themselves online have been given the power by Twitter to censor public health conversations about teenage girls.

… based on the definitions in the Equality Act, “gender identity” protects no definable class of persons, and has nothing to do with gender dysphoria or any other medical condition or diagnosis that anyone may be concerned about alleviating.

… if people are genuinely concerned about mental health or suicidality, it’s odd that the policy goal comes down to allowing people into different rooms, changing a few letters on official forms, hormones, plastic surgery, and enrolling the whole world in their treatment plan, rather than asking for something like more counseling services.

… they have barely heard these concerns before because journalists and doctors alike are worried they will lose their jobs for talking about it, and so we asked them to please, as elected representative who cannot be no-platformed, speak out about this so that families who are worried about what this means can hear that they aren’t alone with their questions and concerns.

… we don’t want anyone harmed, or denied employment or housing because they like to dress quirky or want to have an unusual name, but when the law is prohibited from seeing sex, you can’t ban discrimination based on sex stereotypes; a stronger prohibition of sex stereotype discrimination would protect everyone the bill is meant to support.

"They listened. They brought other colleagues to listen. They asked us questions and engaged, many of them with a concern for women that, while it does not necessarily come from the same place as ours or take the same form, was sincere." (continues)

OldCrone · 01/02/2019 13:16

Here's the screenshot from OrchidInTheSun's post that I mentioned in my previous post.

Who can mothers like this turn to if they want to be ideologically pure? The left doesn't seem to care about the damage to children being done by trans ideology - it celebrates it.

Posie Parker in the USA
Floisme · 01/02/2019 13:16

Who do you think women like this should turn to, while the left is busy cheering while a teenage boy gets castrated on TV and teenage girls are having mastectomies?
I agree and I think it's a really important point. I've said this already but if I was one of those mothers, I would talk to anyone I thought might help.

I am really starting to despise the left. Not only will they not help, they have the nerve to lecture you if you dare look anywhere else for help. They're like an abusive ex, still trying to tell you who you should and shouldn't talk to.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/02/2019 13:16

For this woman (a former Democrat who left the party over this issue), this is not a political debate about who's getting into bed with who, it is about her daughter's health and well-being

To my way of thinking, finding solace with that particular group is a little like the three little pigs looking to the big bad wolf for shelter. But, as said agree to disagree and I'm off for a while now.

Oxytocindeficient · 01/02/2019 13:20

As the thread is about events in Washington, its a shame that persistant derails prevent consideration of the speeches and issues raised within them.

There’s another thread to have discussions about Washington though, which is a lot more constructive.

The fact someone continues to misrepresent my response earlier, while having nothing to say about Early’s ( not Every ) lack of acknowledgement of my rape is astounding to me. The question was asked about rape, not general abuse but RAPE. The talking over of rape victims in this thread is just as gross as the initial dismissive question posed.

The fact is, all those issues are going to be majorly affected if marginalised women have to tailor their language to suit males, have to admit males in their spaces even if it is traumatising, and basically, we as a society cannot acknowledge the biological observable material differences between males and females. That is the big issue, not ‘ a few trans in bathrooms’, but the basis of how we fight for the liberation of women from men. How the fuck are we supposed to do that if there is no such thing as ‘women’ anymore?!

I hate I’ve gone against my wish to ignore this horrible thread, one of many, but I cannot stand by while people discuss rape this way, falsely accuse me of dismissing someone’s abuse and others call discussing rape a derailment. This whole thread is a derailment.

R0wantrees · 01/02/2019 13:51

I hate I’ve gone against my wish to ignore this horrible thread, one of many, but I cannot stand by while people discuss rape this way, falsely accuse me of dismissing someone’s abuse and others call discussing rape a derailment. This whole thread is a derailment

Oxytocindeficient YY

There have been posters on the thread who have repeatedly derailed for their own agendas, often completely inappropriately
Their response to you was appalling
My comment about derailing was to them, not to you.
Apologies if this was not clear.
Flowers