So it’s happened...

[Beerincomechampagnetastes]

I knew it would and I’ve been dreading how I would deal with it.
My dd has been joined in her female boarding house by a young man called George.
George up until last term was a female.
I’m concerned for George and the pupils are all lovely and he’s getting a lot of support.
But I’m confused as to why he’s in the female boarding house?
Is this normal practice for schools?

To reply to whomever asked upthread about transgender trend, I’ve organised a couple to be sent to dds school.

I have spoken to the headmaster previously and he told me they hadn’t put anything into their policy’s as he deemed it unnecessary until it was required.
I checked online and nothing has been updated as yet.
I think I’m going to observe the situation for a while and reflect on all the concerns raised today on this thread.

I am an adoptive parent and I would never want anyone to pretend that I am a biological parent. That would just be bananas. I am legally a parent but not biologically a parent. Sure, I want people to say I'm my DCs' mum, I've undergone the adoption equivalent of getting a GRC (which this child hasn't).

But saying I'm a biological parent is a lie and if I went along to the doctor or the school and said "my DC has inherited XYZ from me" that would be crazy and I would rightly be called out.

But it wouldn't be ok for someone to constantly point out to you and your child that you hadn't given birth to them would it? Even though that is a true statement I would view that as being unkind in the extreme to you both. Why is this case any different?

I’m as gender critical as they come and am first to say that talking about trans issues is not transphobic. I even had a long argument with wheet on the ‘to be shocked by the transphobia on mumsnet threads’ about how it wasn’t.

But scrutinising every trans child and posting on mumsnet with the title ‘so it’s happened...’ like you’ve been waiting and looking out for something, when it appears that the school is actually taking a calm and measured stance, is sailing really close to the knuckle.
It looks like that actually you just have a problem with people being trans full stop. Not the ideology but trans people themselves.

weet as has been pointed out to you many times, boy/man and girl/woman aren't identities. There is no way to 'identify' as the opposite sex other than via external appearance and stereotypes. None.

I've asked this question before of TRAs and their allies and have yet to get an answer, so perhaps you could do the honours? Did Malala Yousafzai get shot in the head because she identified as a girl or because she was a girl?

Both weet and calvin have both called me transphobic on this thread.

I myself don’t call people names because I disagree with them or don’t understand them.

You’ve expressed your opinion at several junctures on this thread , you have been acknowledged and replied to.

If you don’t like this thread, I would like to suggest you post elsewhere.

I’m very pleased to have somewhere to post and get some support- advice - insight- education...whatever it may be.

I really appreciate all of your opinions and will consider them.

RiverTam

This has nothing at all to do with the treatment of women, or men.

This has to do with the treatment of a trans child. The law recognises that you can identify as the opposite sex. That is recognised under the Equality Act.

As far as I am concerned that is enough.

The school are keeping this trans boy in the girls house, which is what you all argue for.

So, again, what is your problem now? Because as far as I can see, your problem is with the very existence of trans people.

What more do you want here? The pupil is being kept in the environment of their birth sex. You are apparently ok with them wearing whatever they want. It's fine by you all for them to change their name so what is the issue?

For all we know, they aren't identifying as male but as a trans man so where is the lie? If they call themselves a trans man that's correct isn't it? That isn't a lie and so no one is being asked to collude in a lie, because there isn't one.

So what is the problem?

Oh give over.

I have not called you transphobic.

I have pointed out that there are some discrepancies on this thread to what is the usual defence of why mumsnet is not transphobic.
Normally people say ‘I don’t hate trans people, people have the right to call themselves and dress however they like, gender dysphoria is real but people can’t change biological sex.’

What exactly have this school done wrong?
What is supposed to happen? Are trans teens supposed to be taken from school in case it confuses the other teens?

so, you can't (or won't) answer my question? Quelle surprise.

And the Equality Act specifies 'gender assignment', meaning those who have or intend to have gender reassignment surgery. Transsexuals or those intending to become transsexual. So, not this child.

The issue is anyone being compelled to refer to G as a boy or to use male pronouns. Because clearly G is a girl, female, as G is sleeping in the girls' dorm. On what level do G or G's parents think G is male, a boy?

it wouldn't be ok for someone to constantly point out to you and your child that you hadn't given birth to them would it?

No, it wouldn't, but I am legally their parent. And in general parlance, we don't call people "birth parents" and "adoptive parents" but, if I'm at a mums group, and everyone gets discussing birth experiences, I don't lie and make one up. So in that respect I am unlike the transwomen who claim to have periods. And there are daft biology-denying adoptive parents who claim to have had sympathetic labour pains but we either ignore them, or point out they are gaslighting their children.

And my children (though they are young, and teenagers often don't want to do this) are quite happy if a peer is saying "I grew in my mummy's tummy" to say "I didn't, I grew in X's tummy".

A child who identifies as trans is much more equivalent to a foster child. Foster children are living with a carer who isn't legally their parent, and they will typically call them by their first name, reserving "mum" for their actual mum.

So if you say to me, "that's not your real child" or "you aren't their real mum" that is daft because they are definitely a child and they are definitely mine and I am definitely a mum and I'm made of flesh and blood.

But if you say "that's not your daughter" to a foster carer, it's true. And they will say, "X lives with us and she's part of the family" which is also true, as "family" is looser.

But if you say a girl who identifies as a boy is a "real boy" then that's not, biologically, true. Nor, in the case of a child is it legally true.

Tam

I’m the furthest thing possible from a TRA but of course girls aren’t oppressed because of their identities but because of their sex.
However we have to understand that we are dealing with a wave of traumatised young women who are trying to identify out of their sex class, just saying ‘you’re a girl get over it’ isn’t the way to go.

It’s a total minefield ams we haven’t come up with the right answer for everybody but keeping this ‘george’ in the girls dormitory whilst allowing her to change her name and pronouns seems a good compromise for now.

just saying ‘you’re a girl get over it’ isn’t the way to go.
To my mind we need to be getting these girls at a younger age and letting them into a) what will happen when they are older and people start REALLY harassing them as opposed to just assuming they like pink and b) how to get over it.

allowing her to change her name and pronouns
Except that this is forcing everyone ELSE to change her pronouns - it's all very well for George to write a third person narrative using "he" but asking everyone else to do so is asking them to act as if George has changed sex.

drspouse

But I think that’s how the majority of trans people feel. They know they aren’t biologically the other sex but would like to be treat socially as such.

(Obviously there’s notable exceptions to this)

Is that right calvin?
You think you know how the majority of trans people feel?

This might come as a surprise to you but your opinion is not as important to everyone as you seem to think it is.

Calvin can you tell me where I've ever said that any girl needs to 'get over it'? I certainly haven't said any such thing. But telling children horrific lies about being able to change sex is also not the way to address what these children are feeling.

I agree school is doing right thing in keeping George there. I hope no teacher gets suspended for misgendering. It has been known.

calvin
I would say, from online and personal interactions, that this is NOT how the majority feel nowadays. This ranges from parents of quite small children I know (therefore, they are telling their children they ARE the opposite sex) to most "apologists" aka woke blokes and handmaidens that I know in person and online, right through to the more rabid TRAs online (thankfully I don't know any of those in person).

If this wasn't the case, why would everyone be so offended by the "woman = adult human female" tshirts? If they know they aren't REALLY a woman it wouldn't be a problem.

calvin is claiming we’re sayong a lot of things on this thread that nobody has said.
calvin doesn’t let the truth get in the way of a good story.

But telling children horrific lies about being able to change sex is also not the way to address what these children are feeling

I know that

But the truth is we live in a very sexist society that DOES treat boys and girls different, as much as I’d love to live in the radical feminist utopia where we are all treat the same and sex functions are our only differences we don’t.
I don’t blame young people feeling oppressed by womanhood and wanting to escape it.
I would love it if no woman felt they needed to transition, but it’s not the world we live in.

Gender as an innate part of who we are? Nah don’t believe in that.
Gender as an oppressive social construct to order the patriarchy? Yup, living it and I can see why someone would want to swap the ones they were given.

I think we HAVE to work to dismantle gender completely but we also have to deal with compassion and care the young people who are victims of it.

Thing is I don't believe that collusion is compassion.

There was a very recent story about a transman who was raped when itbwas realised they were biologically female. They are being sold a false escape route.

The important thing is that when things happen children feel able to speak up. To ask advice. How can they do that when they can't trust the adults around them. Because it doesn't matter where it came from. It doesn't matter that it was done to try and help them,.or make.them feel better, they have been lied too. And that trust will be very hard to get back. That leaves them.even more vulnerable than ever doesn't it?

But I’ve spent my whole life around trans people and never felt I was being lied to, I understood it really well when I was a child.
How hard is it to say ‘George is female but really wants to be treat like a man so we call him he’

If they aren’t using the spaces meant for the other sex they should be free to live their lives as they wish.

But to treat someone like a man means you treat people differently. Which unless you are a dr you shouldn't really be doing. You are reinforcing the very stereo types that drive them feel the way they do.

And these young children are being told they are something they arent by people who are not medically trained . Who come out with such gems as " if you are a girl who identifies as a boy and you are attracted to girls you are straight"
That's gay conversion. Right there.

Look I get it, I agree with you.

I try extremely hard not to treat girls and boys differently but it’s been proven that we all have unconscious bias at the very least and actually the majority of the world isn’t a feminist and outright just treats boys and girls different.

In my perfect world boys and girls would be treat the same and no one would feel the need to transition, but we aren’t there, and it’s just not true to say we are. Expecting people to live their lives now based on how we wish the world was isn’t fair.

I think for the vast vast majority of people transition isn’t the answer but I do think there are a small number who it is right for.

I don't disagree witg that last part.

But we cannot possibly work out who the people it would be right for are, if immediate affirmation is the go too solution. How on earth do you put a stop to it when your parents are straight down the school telling teachers call you James. And that school tells 1500 students your new make is James. They issue you with all new books with the name James on. They call in people to explain to all the teachers and students all about how you feel and that every one must calm you James or you will kill yourself. It leaves you no room to get out. Left alone most kids desist.

These new tactics don't let that happen..that's why we feel it's so dangerous.

I agree, but we have no idea that’s what’s happened here.

Sounds like George - in accordance with a lot of "transmen" - still on a deep level of reality understands "he" would actually be at risk boarding with biological men. Can you imagine the nightmare for poor George?