So it’s happened...

[Beerincomechampagnetastes]

I knew it would and I’ve been dreading how I would deal with it.
My dd has been joined in her female boarding house by a young man called George.
George up until last term was a female.
I’m concerned for George and the pupils are all lovely and he’s getting a lot of support.
But I’m confused as to why he’s in the female boarding house?
Is this normal practice for schools?

I am usually the first one to defend mumsnet from the silly ‘transphobia’ accusations but this thread is a bit off.

The school is actually doing everything right as far as I can see, they are being kind to ‘george’ but also keeping them with the girls.

What more do you want?

I thought people didn’t care what people wore or what names they called themselves they just didn’t want penises in female spaces?
This is a female being kept with the females, what’s the issue?

Are we supposed to just kick trans children out of school so other children never meet them?

You can explain to your daughters about George the same way trans people were explained to me when I was a child.
‘George is female that wants to be a boy, we know that boys and girls can do anything but we live in a sexist society and George would be more comfortable to be seen as a boy than a girl. George can’t literally change to a girl but would prefer to be called a ‘boys’ name and pronouns. We do this because it’s kind to George but they are still female. If you ever feel confused or uncomfortable by anyone’s behaviour come and tell me, this is a complicated issue and your feelings matter too’.

You can explain to your daughters about George the same way trans people were explained to me when I was a child.
‘George is female that wants to be a boy,

It'd be interesting to know if the staff are telling the other girls that George is still female, albeit one who wishes to treated as if they were a boy.

That's very different to them telling the girls that George is now a boy.

Biology class will be fun

There really is nothing off about this thread.
We’re just discussing a situation and how to handle it.
I’ve got lots of good advice and point if views, thank you to everyone who has taken the time to post

Firstly, no-one can compel any child or adult in this school to use male pronouns.

Secondly, it proves what an utter nonsense this is and how 'George' or George's parents can't pick up on that I can't think - George is in the boarding house G belongs in because G is a girl, female.

It is an utter head fuck and the narcissism involved in all this is staggering.

I don't think this thread is mean, or transphobic. It's about the OP realising that it's still confusing and uncomfortable having to deal with someone else's issues whether you want to or not.

I feel complicit in George’s inner turmoil and it’s making me feel very angry.

The example of telling peers they are pretty so as not to hurt feelings. Let's use that. Would you expect the teachers to affirm a plain girl was pretty? No it would be inappropriate. Would you expect there to be some disciplinary consequence for failing to affirm a girl's prettiness? No, but you'd expect bullying to be addressed. So calling someone ugly would not be allowed, but calling someone pretty would not be compelled.
I agree George is in the right place and I hope George is ok. I still think it's a burden placed on the girls George is living with.

But what do you do? If the school refused to affirm pronouns they'd be sued. There are no other options open, and this is the real problem. I'm not suggesting the school, the students or the parents have any motivation to be cruel to George, who is a child, but again there is a legal compulsion to play along due to the fear of litigation. And that is what is unprecedented about trans issues. Playing along is compelled.

Can you be sued in the UK for refusing to use the correct pronouns? The national charity I volunteered with went out of their way to refer to everyone as 'they'.

I have to say, I’m totally sick to my hind teeth of people declaring conversations transphobic.
It derails the issue being discussed while we feel compelled to justify our legitimate concerns.

I have to say, I’m totally sick to my hind teeth of people declaring conversations transphobic

Like bigot, it's a word I now consider rendered meaningless. In my first letter to my MP about the GRA, I was mentioned I was worried he might think of me as a bigot. Six months later, my second letter said I didn't care if he thought me a bigot.

Calvinsmam
I don't agree that this thread is 'a bit off'. It's a parent (understandably) struggling with how to support her child navigating this very difficult issue. And virtually every poster has agreed that this child should be in a girls school, highlighting the evident challenges were they to be placed in a boys school. We must be allowed to talk about this - it's the #nodebate / silencing that's so toxic

Re the compelled speech - if a school decides that a child's pronouns are to be acknowledged - and I would expect all schools to do this - then yes, teachers will have to comply with that. It would be a matter of policy (for want of a better word) . Individual children should not be in the middle of our arguments about this. Teachers will though need some sensitive guidance about how to explain this to other children.

Can you be sued in the UK
IANAL. But I should imagine that the use of pronouns would be seen as a reasonable accommodation of someone's needs. So therefore refusing to might be seen as discriminatory.
So if the pupils refuse to and the school doesn't discipline them it could be seen as failing to protect George from bullying hence discriminatory.
And if the school itself doesn't play along again the argument is that it's NBD to do it so failing to is discriminatory.

The argument that has never been had and the assumption that is borne out the lack of debate is that using the opposite sex's pronouns and using a male name is NBD.
I'd argue that it is a big deal, that for growing and developing minds it is a big deal and as pp have mentioned it degrades the trust young people have in their school teachers if they play along. Can we expect the students to understand the compulsion and the factors that feed into that? Not really. Will they learn that some people can dictate the language others are allowed to use? Yes probably.
And allowing George to do this makes it less likely George will change George's mind, in my opinion. Being lauded and celebrated and indulged (because playing along is an indulgence that wouldn't be allowed a fat girl pretending she was thin or a plain girl pretending she was pretty) is quite addictive, I'm sure. Plus the fact George would lose so much face if George decided next term to go back to being Georgina might well dissuade George from desisting.
It's not as neutral a decision as it is painted as, to play along.

OP I've forgotten how old your DD is ?13 ?

I've been looking at a lot of YouTube clips of one Noah Finnce - I'm not linking, there are lots to look at if you search the name.
Probably not yet age appropriate for your DD but I have watched a lot in a genuine desire to understand and I can relate to him (I'm rolling over with the pronouns herecall it respect/kindness/not wanting a strike whichever) in some ways because he is a year older than DD2 and a year younger than DD1, seems to actually have thought through and understood quite a few issues with intelligence and isn't in total denial of biology in so far as he cheerfully talks through his life as a girl and medical realities of transitioning etc.

What have I learnt?
Noah went to a mixed boarding school (sports scholarship) with lots of strict rules. You can find a clip about his school years. I've an idea which school and I doubt "progressive" is in the vocabulary.
He sensibly decided not to rock the boat and come out as trans until he had finished school and much as it pained him, knuckled down and wore a skirt.
He achieved a creditable 3 grade Bs. (YouTube fan divulged that information so accuracy not confirmed).

He now seems to be having a gap year to complete transition but hasn't mentioned future plans that I've seen.

So...

He wants to have children one day (hello surrogate Mum of the future) and has had eggs frozen. (There's a video all about it).
During this video he waved pictures of his dream man (future husband) with whom he will have a gay relationship and said children.

He had "top surgery" at the beginning of the month. Seems to have researched a good surgeon and is delighted with the results which you can see on YouTube.

He has thought through "bottom surgery " and isn't prepared to do it, giving very coherent reasons to do with surgical risks and poor aesthetic results. Sensible.

He started T a few months ago and seems happy that his voice has dropped and he can no longer sing like he used to as it shows the T is working. Seems a shame for someone who loves their music, (his brother had a music scholarship to same school) but he's happy, Perhaps he will end up baritone or something.

Last night I viewed another clip on how to stop your periods.....go to the family planning clinic and get depoprovera injections which coincidentally has the advantage of providing contraception which he advises is important and the nice nurse also gave him a supply of condoms.

So....he says he's a gay trans boy but apparently has piv sex, understands enough biology to know the risks (of pregnancy) etc.

I'm just so confused. Perhaps I'm too set in my cis het ways (I'm using cis ironically here, I hate the word) to imagine a more fluid approach in so far as he says he is a gay guy, appears to have a normal male looking boyfriend and has piv sex. I wonder if his boyfriend thinks of himself as gay. Bi is possible of course but otherwise presumably he's not worried about most of the woman stuff like breasts etc but definitely wants the vag. Maybe that is the future for some of these trans boys. They may have a shock when they all start looking for willing surrogates at the same time.

Not sure what I'm trying to say here or what I have learnt.
I can never support unnecessary surgical procedures, body modifications and long term medicalisation of healthy young people. I think we (society) probably have a long way to go to understand these girls and give them the best help and advice, especially in the current climate of gender affirmative care and denial of social contagion /ROGD etc.

Anyway watch away maybe it will give you some insight and also you can be one step ahead of your DD and the school perhaps.

Perhaps schools should be encouraging the use of 'they' then? If Anna, Ben and George are all referred to in a gender neutral fashion, that stops the pronoun thing becoming significant if any child transitions.

It comes quite naturally after a bit of practice.

*The official reason that George has been placed in the girls boarding house is because there is apparently a long waiting list for the boys.
This seems questionable *

Sorry been away from thread.

I can't see any way in which they can possibly navigate safeguarding and allow a biological female to board at a boys school unless they're going to become mixed sex. So yes it's a shame this is the lie that's being told.

Has anyone mentioned transgender trend yet? Has the school got a pack?

Flying the recent Christian bakery cased demonstrated than any attempt to compel others to express beliefs they do not hold, so the school can simply make that point to anyone threatening to sue them.

The issue is that the entire school body is involved in this one pupil's personal identity issues.

sorry, missed a bit of the sentence there - the Christian bakery case demonstrated that any attempt to compel others to express beliefs they do not hold will fail.

It is way past time that we found a way for people, and in this case children, to be able to refuse to be compelled to pretend or lie, and still understood and accepted that they can be kind whilst refusing.

Having set children into the abominable situation where they are instructed to lie or be punished, we now need to create the acceptance that compelling a child to lie is wrong.

Children should be as free to refuse to call George 'he' as they are to refuse to pray.

Compelling their speech is compelling them to participate in a lie. Schools need to support children who don't want to lie.

Lying to a child who is confused about their sex makes one complicit in their confusion. I won't be complicit in facilitating some child's futile beliefs, especially when the outcomes are so damaging.

The issue is that the entire school body is involved in this one pupil'spersonalidentity issues

And it's one back of a responsibility given tras are holding everyone who doesn't cooperate personally responsible for them staying alive
It's a shaky foundation.

Heck of

That lie might be to placate George? Or the parents?

But it's not helpful. The school shouldn't be obliged to lie. Safeguarding is a perfectly acceptable explanation.

You could show your DD this clip to have a discussion about where to draw the line of denying reality. I despair really.

Calvinsmam

I agree with all that you said.

Whenever a trans woman is discussed on here everyone says they don't care what clothes people wear or what they call themselves so long as they stay out of female spaces. Yet here we are with a trans man being kept with the girls and still it's considered wrong.

What more do you want? Clearly that this young person is excluded from school because you don't want them in the space that you otherwise argue that they should be.

As for contagion - really? That says more to me about the other girls. If your daughter is likely to be swayed by this boy then surely there is the risk from many other situations too? Say a girl comes out as a lesbian? Do you think that might lead to contagion?

You can't exclude people simply because they are different because you fear contagion. That's just an excuse for wanting this child to be excluded without naming the real reason.

No one wants this child excluded.

This child is in exactly the right place and thank God the school have seen sense and not put them in with the boys.

Doenst mean the message it's sending is right though. That you have to say you are a boy in order to be able to wear or look a certain way.