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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Harry the owl visited by police

999 replies

Imnobody4 · 23/01/2019 20:28

This whole hate speech/incident law is completely out of control. This is sinister.
Check out @HarryTheOwl’s Tweet: twitter.com/HarryTheOwl/status/1088144870991114241?s=09

OP posts:
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49
R0wantrees · 30/01/2019 10:23

I'm sure the publicity will lead to a shake up on that training.

Limiting the focus to PC Gul, Keith Hunter or even the training may prevent scrutint where it is needed. This is much deeper, goes much higher and has to be understood in context.

Who has lobbied, written policies and provided training for the police.
How did they come to have so much unfettered influence?

rytonsister · 30/01/2019 10:25

I would imagine that pc gul S role is to try and reach a more harmonious and understanding place among the youth of today.

I recently dealt with a woman now identifying as a man. And indeed he looked like a man .
He was actually really vulnerable and was being targeted by the local yokels, and was just trying to live peacefully minding his own business in an area where I should imagine it's quite hard to do.

I think the idea behind trying to stop hate "incidents " is to stop an escalation to hate "crime"

In the case I dealt with it could have resulted in two very young lads being given an official warning- again I dealt with it with discretion but had to argue with the woulda coulda shudder squad who told me I should have taken formal action.

To which I said get off your arses and from your desk and you do it then.
Funny- that seemed to sort it.

TimeLady · 30/01/2019 10:26

Yes, R0, those really are the important questions, and Harry seem to be intent on holding those responsible to account.

I always thought sport would be the issue that peak transed the public. It may well be this instead, as it raises the question of free speech and thought policing too.

.

sackrifice · 30/01/2019 10:33

I would imagine that pc gul S role is to try and reach a more harmonious and understanding place among the youth of today

PC Gul needs to stick to objective facts not utter nonsense though. Especially if children who are questioning this bollocks are scared of speaking up else their thinking be checked.

rytonsister · 30/01/2019 10:33

RO
I'd be interested to know who wrote the policy too - I believe all forces take guidance from the college of policing, but every force will have its hot potato and different command teams focus on different things.

I'm so on the fence with this.

I do t think hate incidents should be for the police to sort and record- police really have more than enough to do
But
I also get the the thinking in trying to enable a little more sympathy and tolerance of difference and trans people.
I'm not sure where that leaves me really!

R0wantrees · 30/01/2019 10:35

James Kirkup: 'This MP has summed up everything wrong with the transgender debate'

(extracts)
MPs have been talking about gender and sex and the law. This is a good thing. That’s the job Parliament is there to do, after all: debate complicated, contested issues in order to decide how and if to make laws, and to make sure the country is a place where differing views and arguments can be tested.

Some of the things that were said in the debate were sensible and thoughtful, some were not. But in a sense, that doesn’t matter; the same is true of all parliamentary debates, which are inevitably a mixture of insight and cobblers. And to coin a phrase, any debate is better than no debate.

For new readers, this debate really boils down to who gets to be a woman. How should the law deal with people who are born male and retain a male body who identify themselves as a woman? Should they be able to gain the rights, entitlements and legal status of a woman on the basis of that self-identification? The government has consulted on changing the law to make it easier to legally change gender; some people support that, some people don’t. More of that in a minute.

First, Victoria Atkins, the minister for women and equalities at the Home Office is a good thing, and someone surely heading for more senior ministerial office in due course. Ministerial responses to Westminster Hall debates are often boilerplate bromides written by officials and recited unthinkingly by the minister concerned. Atkins’ contribution was a lot better than that, and strongly suggests a minister who has taken the time to think critically about the issues (and actors) in an area where critical thinking has been painfully lacking. (continues)

Here are two eminently reasonable Atkins quotes that should be utterly uncontroversial but which are, in this context, refreshingly bold:

‘People are sometimes almost too scared to talk about things, which is not right. We do not want a climate of fear in the debate. We want people to be able to express their views respectfully and in a caring and careful manner, so that we ensure that questions are flushed out and answered.’

And:

‘I get asked about this issue regularly, and we all share a sense of sadness about the fact that this important debate sometimes gets taken over by loud and sometimes aggressive campaigning by activists. I am sure they hold their beliefs very strongly, but they perhaps lose sight of the fact that we have to be able to talk about this issue in a reasoned, respectful and caring fashion. The vast majority of the public—and, I am sure, parliamentarians—are in the middle. We want to talk about this issue in a caring and careful way so society gets to a position in which we are all comfortable with the consequences of the changes to legislation and so on.’ (continues)

Some of them are unhappy about rules allowing male-born people to ‘identify’ as women. They worry that doing so could compromise the female-only spaces that society has provided in recognition of the potential danger that male-bodied people pose to their safety and privacy. They argue that if, as a slogan suggests, ‘trans women are women’ and a trans woman is anyone who says they are a trans woman, then there is nothing to stop a male-born person with full male anatomy and malign intent entering female-only spaces. And that, they say, is a problem, because a male body (especially one guided by male socialisation) is always a potential threat to female bodies, female privacy, and female dignity.

Ms Moran has said she believes trans women are women. Mr Davies has said he believes that a person with a penis cannot be a woman.

Their exchange is here:

David T. C. Davies:

‘I hear what the hon. Lady is saying. May I bluntly ask her whether she would be happy sharing a changing room with somebody who was born male and had a male body?’

Layla Moran:

‘I believe that women are women, so if that person was a trans woman, I absolutely would. I just do not see the issue. As for whether they have a beard, which was one of the hon. Gentleman’s earlier comments, I dare say that some women have beards. There are all sorts of reasons why our bodies react differently to hormones. There are many forms of the human body. I see someone in their soul and as a person. I do not really care whether they have a male body.’

And that, in a nutshell, is the transgender debate. Remember, Ms Moran, an intelligent and educated member of Parliament was speaking in a debate about laws that help determine how and whether people with female bodies can chose to separate themselves from people with male bodies. I’ll repeat her key observation again, just for clarity:

‘I see someone in their soul and as a person. I do not really care whether they have a male body.’

Truly, Britain is a fortunate nation. This year really has demonstrated how lucky we are in the talents of our elected representatives. But even after the masterful Brexit debate and all the other delights, we didn’t know just how blessed we are. Because it turns out have an MP who has the gift of being able to see people ‘in their soul’ (continues)
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/this-mp-has-summed-up-everything-wrong-with-the-transgender-debate/

It is cross party issues both the lobbying, briefing and need for critical thinking.

As with Keith Hunter, PC Gul etc, Layla Moran and by implication the Lib Dems attracted a lot of condemnation and ridicule for her talk of seeing souls.

The more significant focus would be on those TRAs within the Liberal Democrats and other influential groups such as Stonewall, Press For Change, Trans Media Watch etc who have so successfully lobbied for so long.

R0wantrees · 30/01/2019 10:37

RO
I'd be interested to know who wrote the policy too - I believe all forces take guidance from the college of policing, but every force will have its hot potato and different command teams focus on different things.

Charities including Stonewall and Mermaids have been open about how much work they have done providing training and 'guidance' to the police.

These are lobby groups.

RiverTam · 30/01/2019 10:42

ryton telling lies to vulnerable people is a monstrous thing to do. Monstrous. And reinforces damaging gender stereotyping.

Being tolerant is admirable but watch out for starting to tolerate the intolerable.

R0wantrees · 30/01/2019 10:42

relevent threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3374926-What-influence-does-TELI-have-on-government-public-services-and-charities-policies-Co-founders-include-Jess-Bradley-Tara-Hewitt-and-Michelle-Hudson

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3241837-Why-has-the-trans-lobby-been-so-successful

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3454658-recording-of-mermaids-training

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3488261-The-Financial-Juggernaut-that-is-Stonewall

AngryAttackKittens
I'm going to point every "but the nice, harmless old school transsexuals whose movement has been unfairly appropriated by the nasty transgender people" person to this thread from now on.

"All the same elements we're seeing now were there in that old BBC roundtable from the 70s with the 4 transwomen, the politician, and the doctor. None of this is new."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

TimeLady · 30/01/2019 10:45

You should be able to teach about being respectful to those who are different without the need for dodgy science to back you up.

My kids - most kids - were brought up to be respectful and trust a police officer, so some will undoubtedly take on board the 'lady brain' nonsense if an authority figure tells them it's true.

The training is clearly flawed.

R0wantrees · 30/01/2019 10:47

The training is clearly flawed.

The ideology and power of those promoting it is dangerous.

R0wantrees · 30/01/2019 10:48

The ideology and power of those promoting it is dangerous.

Especially to children, vulnerable adults and particularly women (adult human females)

ahagwearsapointybonnet · 30/01/2019 11:10

I just have to say
"Confirming that he had spoken to Mr Miller for 20 minutes, PC Gul told the Telegraph he made the remark about the foetus because he had “learned it on a training course ran by a transgender person last summer”."

RUN by, dammit, RUN by!

As you were Grin

Melroses · 30/01/2019 13:05

It is worrying that this could have happened to someone who is not their own employer.

theOtherPamAyres · 30/01/2019 13:38

Having heard the woefully bad Mermaids' training for trainers course, is anyone suprised that Stonewall's police training is on the same level?

Let's point the finger in the right direction shall we?

Maria Miller's Committee, the Department for Education, the Equalities Department, the Home Office and the Ministry for Criminal Justice all accepted, without question, the idea that Transphobia was leading to the deaths and violent assaults of transgender people. Maria Miller's Committee urged the police to 'crack down' on transphobia.

Pro-trans lobby groups provided the training, posters, distance learning material and other resources for the 'crackdown'. Various police forces became Stonewall Diversity Champions. Various Crown Prosecution branches became Stonewall Diversity Champions. There were lots of claps on the back as the police and cps urged people to report transphobia.

....Except..... No-one in govt or in state institutions had considered that there was a conflict of interest and a conflict of rights. The State was confident that there was no dissent except from 'transphobes' and 'radical feminists' but expected the public at large to get on board with 'saving lives' even if it meant new definitions of 'woman' and pretending that misgendering was literal violence.

.....Except that police leaders expected their officers to 'muddle through' hate incidents. They provided a basic definition of transphobia but there was no guidance on how to mediate between competing perspectives.

And so you have the unfortunate PC Gul, floundering around in the belief that he is helping to save lives. His training didn't allow for 'shades of grey' or nuances or filters. He believed what he was told - and still believes it.

The blame lies with the politicians, civil servants, CPS and police leaders who bask in the glory of their Stonewall Diversity Champion Awards while dropping PC Gul and every other front line officer in the shit.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 30/01/2019 13:42

His training didn't allow for 'shades of grey' or nuances or filters.

Gul can't blame a training course on his own inability to understand basic biology or to use the tiniest bit of common sense.

andyoldlabour · 30/01/2019 13:58

"RUN by, dammit, RUN by!"

As they say up in Liverpool - "Calm down, calm down".

Back in 2008, following a police officer having a sex change, Humberside Police arranged for transgender training for 300 of their staff, and the training was supplied by - Gender Shift (GS).

www.personneltoday.com/hr/humberside-police-undergo-sex-change-training/

If that cost £50 a head, then that was a total of £15,000.

Sgt Chris Swaby fiorm the same squad as PC Gul received some training from Stephanie Hirst, formerly radio DJ Steve Hirst.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37790773

HANA works with Humberside Police.

hanaonline.co.uk/hate-crime-reporting-centre/

Humberside Police are a member of Stonewalls diversity champions.

www.stonewall.org.uk/diversity-champions-members

Knicknackpaddyflak · 30/01/2019 13:59

U r permitted to believe whatever u wish

Leaving aside that a 'professional' in a senior position in a public service role looks a twit when they put out social media phrased in well cool twelve year old speak, and that most professionals not only wouldn't get into social media fights in their working role but are actively signed into not doing so in their contract to avoid making their organisation look ridiculous and colouring public opinion against it -

The whole point of the conversation is that a member of this man's staff spent half an hour in an official police role harassing someone for 'wrong thinking' and apparently proscribed belief. And he's said that he supports this PC in this. So either he lied and thinks the man did something wrong because freedom of belief is none of the police's business, or he's lied in saying 'you're free to believe what you wish' (in an embarrassingly illiterate way).

Frankly the man's looking more and more in need of an urgent reshuffle to the darkest corner of the department and banning from Twitter since he's made the entire county's police force a laughing stock.

And isn't it interesting how everyone following the pseudo science, anti fact, wrongthink anti woman, women having rights is incompatible with equality and respect line in public immediately demonstrates that they are multiple sandwiches short of a picnic?

rytonsister · 30/01/2019 14:23

What I can't grasp is that generally us cops are evidence based - and as a rule - quite bolshy. I mean we argue back at training quite often - we question things. That's why I thought pc gul must be quite young /green . Maybe tats what they're recruiting these days 🤷🏻‍♀️ but I'd have been asking to see the evidence and the scientific facts behind this thinking. (And would have probably got some black looks but I'm used to that....I find it incredibly difficult to keep my mouth shut if I really disagree. !)
I've flat out refused to do things before now if they were plain wrong. Being a cop means honesty and integrity. - it's in the code of ethics.

SharkBastard · 30/01/2019 14:32

When I was arrested, the arresting officer was very young and had to read a script. He was prompted constantly and shown how to fill in evidence bags. This was in front of my kids and husband.

The other 2 officers followed me about the house.

I was a training exercise

rytonsister · 30/01/2019 15:03

shark - its on the job learning mostly im afraid and there is no easy way to arrest anyone.
new officers are given a 10 week tutored phase with a tutor officer for that reason - its very nerve wracking making your first few arrests.

and in my force if its a pre planned arrest we always go in twos in case it kicks off.

we work single crewed (alone) during the day and afternoon shifts. only double up for pre planned and night shifts.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 30/01/2019 15:16

ryton

I was a special a long long long time ago

The copper i was with stopped a speeding car and said to me

Go over and say to the driver...do you know what speed you are doing sir

So i went over and i said...as stern as i could...do you know what speed you were doing

And the man said....yes

😳

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 30/01/2019 15:16

Nothing to do with the thread but you talking about training on the job reminded me Grin

rytonsister · 30/01/2019 15:20

Grin rufus that made me laugh! yeah take the wind right out your sails when that happens doesnt it! (not that i stop speeding cars unless they are proper going for it....)

LangCleg · 30/01/2019 15:32

its on the job learning mostly im afraid and there is no easy way to arrest anyone

Mate, the person you're talking to was arrested for a similar Twitter thought crime. It's indoctrination of young officers into believing that freedom of expression is not a qualified human right at all, when it bloody well is. And indoctrination of her children to boot.

I know this is personal for you but really. It's not about you. It's about a free society.

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