Gillette advert

[GoulashSoup]

This popped up on my face book.

It is not going to solve all our problems but encouraging men to challenge other men’s behaviour is a good start.

Thanks Ro once again you always come through. Getting late here now, busy morning tomorrow, but I'll make some time to check those links out.

The mention of eggshells has reminded me of a book I'd like to recommend reading Eggshell Skull by Bri Lee. A young woman's story of her journey through Australia's legal system and the injustices she observed in how victims of DV are treated.

the majority didn’t appreciate a private company trying to tell them how to think and behave and inserting controversial politics into advertising.

The objectification of women and male violence shouldn't be controversial or political.

It needs to happen because society thinks upskirting is wrong and should be a crime.

It won't stop men doing it, though.

A young teenage girl noticed that some boys next to her, at a festival, were sniggering over their phone. She realised she had been the victim of an up skirt photograph. She found security, who took the phone, saw the photo, but said there's nothing they can do.

What should have happened is that boy's friends should have called him a disgusting pervert and so should the security man. But they didn't.

That's the point of the ad. If you do nothing, you're part of the problem.

I can totally see it becoming a thing for women using that advert as a barometer for whether they should date someone.

I can totally see it becoming a thing for women using that advert as a barometer for whether they should date someone.

The response to the advert is a very useful barometer not just for who women choose to date.
Its also a good starting point for discussions more generally with opportunities to discuss much wider issues.

The Bewildeness' Rules are very pertinent.
I miss her insight and wisdom on this board.

"The rules of misogyny
1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.
2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.
4th rule of misogyny: Women's opinions are violence against men thus male violence against women is justified.
5th rule of misogyny: WATM! Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.
6th rule of misogyny: Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breast feeding babies deserve punishment.
7th rule of misogyny: Women should always be grateful to men for everything.
8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
9th rule of misogyny: Men always know the "real reasons" for everything women do and say. 10th rule of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it males men look bad. 11th rule of misogyny: Basic pattern recognition skills are cruel and evil when they hurt men's feelings.

12th rule of misogyny: whatever women suffer from, men suffer from more.

13th rule of misogyny: Women are not oppressed! Rape and catcalling and objectification are all compliments, not oppression.

14th rule of misogyny: Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent."

www.reddit.com/r/Gender_Critical/comments/6kkeni/the_rules_of_misogyny/

My eldest did not react well to this "advert" at all. H not interested.

I figured that the fact it opens with a black man to be a good thing, however he has taken it as an attack not on men but as an attack on white men who are despite the tantruming really the only demographic it is allowable to target in this way. There is nothing about the misogyny in rap music or within islam because .....Someone mentioned grooming gangs above, it's interesting that a lot of white men are actually very motivated to find a solution to that particular problem...but not a solution most of us would want to see. They are not so good at owning problems other men like them create other than to lock them up. I don't wholly understand that but then I am not a man and I don't as a woman feel responsible for crimes that women commit.

I think the fact the advert was made by a woman telling men how to be better men is controversial in itself, an advert made by men explicitly telling women how to be better women or mothers would not go down well either. So I can kind of see that point.

Someone mentioned grooming gangs above, it's interesting that a lot of white men are actually very motivated to find a solution to that particular problem...but not a solution most of us would want to see. They are not so good at owning problems other men like them create other than to lock them up

It is human nature to want to locate risk with 'others' as it reinforces a belief that 'we are good' whilst there are some 'bad' people who we can identify and punish.

Its naive at best and dangerous at worst.

Awww I just think the boys are so funny, getting all upset at this advert.
They take stuff so seriously, don't they, the sillies.
They just need to lighten up and smile more.
They're so much prettier when they smile.

It is human nature to want to locate risk with 'others' as it reinforces a belief that 'we are good' whilst there are some 'bad' people who we can identify and punish

Thinking about it this reminds me of the speech Hannah gadsby made. I can't remember it exactly but it pointed out that actualky the good guys rely on the bad guys to keep us all in check and allow them to be the so called good guys.

Add that to the equation as well as previous points made and yes that would panic and upset and make alot of men angry too. If it did Some how change the dynamics

Thinking about it this reminds me of the speech Hannah gadsby made. I can't remember it exactly but it pointed out that actualky the good guys rely on the bad guys to keep us all in check and allow them to be the so called good guys.

It absolves people, in this case specifically males, from considering and reflecting on their own behaviours.

Have a read of the HuffPost article above by Luke Hart, have a think and perhaps you'll realise how utterly crass your comment is in the context of this thread.”

Read it. That article makes me believe my initial assumptions about how this campaign would work out were insensitively worded but probably correct. I predicted Gillette would get lots of short lived applause from the right on overly woke media but that this didn’t reflect wider public opinion and would be quickly forgotten leaving lasting damage to the brand as people are not so quick to forget when someone or something upsets them.

That article was not a balanced and doesn’t try to look at the advert from all points of view which just increases my confidence that praise from activist publications does not reflect the feelings of the general population.

I think feminism and MeToo has become a bit like the go vegan movement. When vegans started highlighting the way battery farmed chickens were treated and how awful conditions in slaughter houses were people started to reflect on their choices and sympathy for animal rights increased. But as the rhetoric was dialled up it crossed a line where sympathy for veganism started to decrease. I don’t know where that line was exactly, was it the blanket claims that ‘meat is murder’, or someone throwing red paint at women with fur coats on, or just the general insufferable self righteous smugness of some vegans themselves? Whatever it was there was a point. I believe feminism has crossed the point where it is now making the public less sympathetic to its cause.

'I think the fact the advert was made by a woman telling men how to be better men is controversial in itself, an advert made by men explicitly telling women how to be better women or mothers would not go down well either. So I can kind of see that point.'

Really?? A woman makes a stunningly impactful advert and you point out that women should not be telling men what to do??? Men dominate the voices we all hear in journalism, lawmaking, parliament, banking, control of finances, business yet one woman makes an advert and you see fit to find against it??

cor

apparently we all hate vegans now

I did not get that memo

sharpening my pitchfork now, ready to join MarshmallowSnowDon on the anti vegan march

.

Really?? A woman makes a stunningly impactful advert and you point out that women should not be telling men what to do??? Men dominate the voices we all hear in journalism, lawmaking, parliament, banking, control of finances, business yet one woman makes an advert and you see fit to find against it??

Why yes, it's because a woman made an advert

What I said was if a man made an "advert" telling women how to be better women and mothers damn sure a lot of people would have a problem with it, as would I.

Feminist = Vegan. What a bizarre comparison.

Also feminism has crossed a line?

Genuinely gob smacked.

I suppose if the bar for being a bad man is set at murdering psychos, child abusers and back alley rapists, then 99% of men sit on the good side. If the bar is set slightly higher (as in the advert) how many men will find themselves under it? Maybe they’re so angry because they can’t cope with the truth that some of their behaviour has been shitty and it’s been too easy to hide it behind a veneer of lads will be lads.

Read it. That article makes me believe my initial assumptions about how this campaign would work out were insensitively worded but probably correct. I predicted Gillette would get lots of short lived applause from the right on overly woke media but that this didn’t reflect wider public opinion and would be quickly forgotten leaving lasting damage to the brand as people are not so quick to forget when someone or something upsets them.

That article was not a balanced and doesn’t try to look at the advert from all points of view which just increases my confidence that praise from activist publications does not reflect the feelings of the general population

MarshmallowSnowDon

You've missed the point of Luke Hart's article sadly
Its about coercive control and the dangers of 'toxic masculinity'. Luke Hart believes that Gilette is right to highlight this.

Perhaps you're also not aware of why this matters to many regular female members of Mumsnet? I'm aware you are relatively new to the FWR (Feminism and Women's Rights Board)

To repeat a previous post:

Recent Video raising awareness of coercive control, 'Walking On Eggshells

www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ycbf2

"Contains subject matter some viewers may find upsetting.

Coercive control is domestic abuse. Controlling or coercive behaviour was criminalised in 2015 - but it still affects hundreds of thousands of women in the UK.

Mumsnet, Women's Aid and Surrey Police have joined together to help raise awareness of the dangers of coercive control.

A new survey found 38% of Mumsnet users have suffered some form domestic abuse.

With thanks to:

Sadi Khan
Clo Winfield
Ryan and Luke Hart
Sutherland Shire Family Services

Help is available. Freephone 24-hour National Domestic Violence Helpline (run by Women’s Aid and Refuge) - 0808 2000 247.

If you fear for your immediate safety, or someone else's, please call 999. "

I believe feminism has crossed the point where it is now making the public less sympathetic to its cause.

Its fascinating how many MRAs post on FWR to tell women the ways in which feminsim wrong.
Just as for many months male TRAs have been on the threads telling women how they're understanding of woman is wrong.

Maybe its a coincidence?
Maybe there's a commonality?

“Feminist = Vegan. What a bizarre comparison” - The similarities are both movement’s activists are no longer generating sympathy for their causes and are now both actively turning people against their causes. And this is due to the actions of the activists themselves, not the actions of their critics. Butchers aren’t the ones making vegans unpopular and MRAs aren’t the ones making feminism unpopular.

“Also feminism has crossed a line?” - The line crossed seems to be that now the more feminists campaign the less popular feminism becomes and the less sympathy there is. Feminism is now seen as toxic and misandristic by most people. Most women would not call themselves feminists as a result. Feminists made feminism unpopular. That should be cause for reflection but all I see is doubling down.

I see the UKIP move to exploit the GC movement by feigning an interest in women's issues is going well...

... top tip: subtlety helps.

EJennings

Show me an advert where a man is depicted strangling or battering a woman accompanied by a voice over encouraging men to engage in said behaviour.

If there were such adverts they would a) be banned and b) be met with howls of protest from both sexes.

The line crossed seems to be that now the more feminists campaign the less popular feminism becomes and the less sympathy there is. Feminism is now seen as toxic and misandristic by most people. Most women would not call themselves feminists as a result. Feminists made feminism unpopular

Good of you to come and tell women this.

Your opinion is noted.

I ain't here to be popular, I'm here to liberate women.

Feminism has never been popular in my lifetime. I used to be an anti feminist because I misunderstood it and thought that standing with the bigger crowd was more important. Now I can see clearly that those people have always been banging the 'Feminism has gone too far' drum have never actually given a crap about the actual issues feminists talk about.

So I shall take your cautions about where feminism is failing as the cynical self serving bullshit they are, ta.

and are now both actively turning people against their causes

thats a really silly comparison

There must be a better one surely

A meat eater can come with loads of reasons why they should eat meat

Im not sure anyone could come up with reasons why women should not be treated as equal to men, or should be catcalled, paid less etc