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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gillette advert

299 replies

GoulashSoup · 15/01/2019 08:05

This popped up on my face book.

It is not going to solve all our problems but encouraging men to challenge other men’s behaviour is a good start.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
nojellybabies · 16/01/2019 09:37

I think they are trying to reclaim masculinity for a confused generation of young men?

It's got to be good, I think.

plus it's true: the boys watching today are the men of tomorrow

it's like that radio 4 programme where you have to smuggle truths into a pack of lies....

Datun · 16/01/2019 09:48

Excellent article userschmoozer. Utterly tragic.

*You may protest, ‘I haven’t harassed, raped or murdered anyone. The men that do are just mentally ill.’

But masculinity needs those lone soldiers to uphold the regime. It is this background threat of violence that keeps men in power.

Every time a man negotiates against a woman, like a militaristic state with its arsenal lined up behind it, he gets favourable negotiating terms because of this implicit threat.

R0wantrees · 16/01/2019 09:58

userschmoozer
Thanks for sharing the HuffPost article above.
'Gillette Is Right To Acknowledge The Effect Of Toxic Masculinity – I Know Its Danger First Hand'

Luke Hart and his brother, Ryan's work raising awareness of coercive control, domestic abuse and domestic homicide is very important.

see their Twitter account:
twitter.com/CoCoAwareness

Operation Lighthouse website:

"'The only thing necessaryfor the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke
As two young men who have lost the greatest parts of our lives to domestic homicide, we have committed to raising awareness and speaking out against male violence towards women and children. Our debut book, Operation Lighthouse, is available on Amazon.

We have delivered speeches at a variety of events internationally. We are always looking for opportunities to share their story and challenge male violence against women and children in our roles as White Ribbon Ambassadors and Refuge Champions."
www.operationlighthouse.co.uk/

White Ribbon's
twitter.com/WhiteRibbon_UK

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

Gillette advert
Gillette advert
LangCleg · 16/01/2019 10:03

My youngest and his little group of mates (young adults) all really liked it. They brought up recent rape/sex assault cases of prominent sportsmen. "Just because you like sport, doesn't mean you have to give wankers a pass, does it Mrs Lang? That's what it's saying, right?"

So I brought up my objections.

"Now you're being all complicated."

So I shut up!

R0wantrees · 16/01/2019 10:06

Guardian article by George Monbiot :
'The fear that lies behind toxic masculinity
Why do so many men love Jordan Peterson and hate the Gillette ad? If they’re truly strong they don’t need to assert their virility'

(extract)
What strikes me most is the fragility. Gillette makes an advertisement calling on men to challenge abusive behaviour, and thousands furiously proclaim they will never use its products again. The American Psychological Association (APA) issues new clinical guidelines advising that a masculinity characterised by dominance, aggression and emotional repression can be harmful to men’s mental health, and the world’s conservative media falls into a collective faint. So much for the strong and silent types.

If “real men”, according to the men’s rights movement, are tough and commanding, why are the exponents of this doctrine so easily discomposed? Why does the slightest challenge to the norms they proclaim – by a razor ad or an academic body they had probably never encountered before – trigger this frenzied testeria?

Those who urge us to shut down, man up and grow a pair push us towards disaster and despair
In thinking about male identities, I’m struck by the inadequacy of the terms we use. The notion that men should be distant, domineering and self-seeking is often described as toxic masculinity, but this serves only to alienate those who might need most help. Its proponents describe their behavioural ideal as traditional masculinity, but conceptions of maleness, like conceptions of the family, have changed radically from century to century. In the furious response to the advertisement and the new guidelines, in the enthusiasm for the psychologist Jordan Peterson and similar macho ideologues, what I perceive is a fearful masculinity.

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If you are at ease with yourself, you don’t feel the need to call other men cucks. If you are strong, you don’t feel threatened by strong women. In a fascinating article last year, Pankaj Mishra argued that perceived crises of masculinity often accompany anxiety about economic or national decline. Just as US humiliation in Vietnam stimulated an appetite for “such cartoon visions of masculinity as Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger”, 9/11 helped to spread morbid fears about the emasculation of western powers, and the need to assert a new ideal of manliness. The perceived loss of both political and gender dominance has provoked some men to respond with homophobia and misogyny in a crude attempt to restore male authority." (continues)

concludes:
One of the many he-men responding to the new guidelines, David French, writing in the National Review, asserts that becoming a “grown man” requires “oppressive” discipline, aggression and risk-taking. But to me, growing up – whether as a man or a woman – means abandoning anger, aggression and the need to dominate. It means learning to talk about fear, loss, joy and love. It means learning both to listen and to share, to name your troubles and engage with other people’s. You need to be strong to admit your weaknesses. In admitting them, you build your strength.

The age-old mistake, which has stunted countless lives, is the assumption that because physical hardship in childhood makes you physically tough, emotional hardship must make you emotionally tough. It does the opposite. It implants a vulnerability that can require a lifetime of love and therapy to repair and that, untreated, leads to an escalating series of destructive behaviours. Emotionally damaged men all too often rip apart their own lives, and those of their partners and children. I see both physical fitness and emotional strength as virtues, but they are acquired by entirely different means.

Those who deny their own feelings tend to deny other people’s. Some men clearly find it easier to order a drone strike, separate children from their families or build a wall than to admit and address their own vulnerabilities. There is, as Madeleine Somerville has discussed in the Guardian, a powerful association between perceived masculinity and a lack of concern for the living world: real men don’t recycle. A study in the Journal of Consumer Research suggests that meat-eating is strongly associated with conceptions of maleness, which inhibit a switch towards a plant-based diet, essential to avoid environmental breakdown.

What sort of a man are you if you have to go to such lengths to prove your masculinity? The confident construction of identity does not require crude cultural markers, but emotional literacy and honest self-appraisal. The more we proclaim our strength and dominance, the weaker we reveal ourselves to be."

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/16/men-masculinity-gillette-advertisement

R0wantrees · 16/01/2019 10:13

Luke Hart, extract from the HuffPost article linked previously:

(extract)
"It made me realise that holding traditional views of masculinity not only harms women, but traps men too.

When we tried to leave him and live a better life, our father murdered our mum and sister in cold blood before committing suicide. He believed he was entitled to kill us if we didn’t obey him.

My family’s case is extreme, though by no means a lone instance. Masculine culture necessitates men to believe that we are godlike. It is due to the Faustian Bargain we made: we sacrificed worthwhile emotional experiences or connection, but we demanded power in return.

If anyone on the outside of the cult raises concerns about masculine culture, it closes ranks and unites against a common enemy. Masculinity is relational, it is constructed in relation to and against an Other, which it perceives to be below it (for example: femininity). If we could all be who we wanted to be, then there would be no distinct Other: there would be no prize for the masculine sacrifice.

If anyone on the inside of the cult raises concerns, masculine dogma shames its members into conformity or forces them to run the gauntlet to escape. It uses taunts, threats and violence to discourage independent thinking and to enforce its worship of hierarchy. Once initiated, new members become yet another cog in the fascist machine that is masculine culture.

‘Fascism, you say?’

Militarism, nationalism and authoritarianism: yep.

Masculine militarism is our violence, 96% of homicides globally are committed by men. Globally, every year 60,000 women are killed by men. I could quote statistics for pages upon pages showing that serious violence is almost entirely a male activity. In most cases where women kill men, it is in self-defence against this onslaught.

Masculine authoritarianism is our peer pressure, enforcing strict obedience to masculine dogma at the expense of our individual freedom beyond the masculine border.

Masculine nationalism is our collection of trite tales on masculine mythology, stories of our biological endowment: we are lions, we are predators, we are natural leaders in the world.

You may protest, ‘I haven’t harassed, raped or murdered anyone. The men that do are just mentally ill.’

But masculinity needs those lone soldiers to uphold the regime. It is this background threat of violence that keeps men in power. Every time a man negotiates against a woman, like a militaristic state with its arsenal lined up behind it, he gets favourable negotiating terms because of this implicit threat.

‘But wait, men are victims too.’

Yes, of other men. Globally, 80% of all murder victims are men. Yes, this is the dark secret of masculine culture: we are the biggest losers to this broken order. Those men who shout the loudest against opening the strict borders of masculinity are not supporting men, they are simply defending masculinity and the existing power structures."

QuentinWinters · 16/01/2019 10:26
Grin
Gillette advert
QuentinWinters · 16/01/2019 10:26
Grin
Gillette advert
QuentinWinters · 16/01/2019 10:27

Oops sorry for duplicate post

userschmoozer · 16/01/2019 10:35

Relevant study here;

''Australian study reveals the dangers of ‘toxic masculinity’ to men and those around them''
''...more likely to suffer harm to themselves, and do harm to others...''
''Our findings are consistent with other research on the societal impact of traditional masculine ideals.''

''..there is a consistent gap between men and women when it comes to views of gender roles. Young Australian men are less aware than young women of sexism and more supportive of male dominance and violent attitudes toward women.''
''..Research in the US has found that young American men are also less aware than young women of the harms of traditional masculinity.''

theconversation.com/australian-study-reveals-the-dangers-of-toxic-masculinity-to-men-and-those-around-them-104694

tellmewhenthespaceshiplands · 16/01/2019 10:36

ROwan really good articles thanks for links. Interesting link of US defeat in Vietnam to "cartoonish" visions of masculinity such as Stallone (although I do love Rocky!).

Quentin I enjoyed that post even more on 2nd read!

Freespeecher · 16/01/2019 10:52

Where do Gillette go from here I wonder?

Their next Ladyshave ad to show the door to the women's toilets being held open for a transwoman?

CroneXX · 16/01/2019 10:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tellmewhenthespaceshiplands · 16/01/2019 11:17

... and whilst the Gillette ad goes on stirring up so much venom and anger the House of Lords has backed a bill to make up skirting a crime.

If some masculinity isn't a problem and we're all hysterical why does this even need to be happen?

Apologies for no link I'm not sure how to do!

Respect to Gina Martin Star

MarshmallowSnowDon · 16/01/2019 11:39

“Freespeecher

Where do Gillette go from here I wonder?

Their next Ladyshave ad to show the door to the women's toilets being held open for a transwoman?”

Why not? I mean if they’re going to take a side in a divisive political debate that’s fast becoming a mini culture war why not go all out? Might as well take a position on Brexit while they are at it.

Perhaps in their next advert one of the women could look slightly uncomfortable and/or confused about a trans women in the female toilets and all the other women could correct her and shame her for her bigotry and non-inclusive wrong think and the advert could end by saying women have to be more accepting...

The results would be exactly the same as well. A minority of woke progressives would shout about how great an advert it was but the company would later find out that there aren’t enough woke progressives to have much significant purchasing power and that the majority didn’t appreciate a private company trying to tell them how to think and behave and inserting controversial politics into advertising.

R0wantrees · 16/01/2019 11:43

The results would be exactly the same as well. A minority of woke progressives would shout about how great an advert it was but the company would later find out that there aren’t enough woke progressives to have much significant purchasing power and that the majority didn’t appreciate a private company trying to tell them how to think and behave and inserting controversial politics into advertising.

MarshmallowSnowDon

Have a read of the HuffPost article above by Luke Hart, have a think and perhaps you'll realise how utterly crass your comment is in the context of this thread.

MarshmallowSnowDon · 16/01/2019 12:00

“tellmewhenthespaceshiplands

... and whilst the Gillette ad goes on stirring up so much venom and anger the House of Lords has backed a bill to make up skirting a crime.

If some masculinity isn't a problem and we're all hysterical why does this even need to be happen?“

It needs to happen because society thinks upskirting is wrong and should be a crime. Most men and women don’t think people should be allowed to take pictures up women’s skirts without their consent and want to see the practice criminalised because they know a small minority of men will do this to lots of women unless it is made illegal. And if people do this after it is illegal society believes they should be punished.

Parliament is the proper place for this debate to happen and legislation is the proper outcome after a democratic debate and vote. We don’t need Gillette to release an advert showing 42 men taking pictures up women’s skirts on public transport and laughing about it as if most men go around doing this all the time and think it’s funny and then 7 men stepping in and telling them to behave and stop it, followed by a final scene telling men to stop behaving like a bunch of creepy pervs as if most men do that as a matter of course. Mind you perhaps Gillette might like to give that advert a try.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 16/01/2019 12:01

That would involve MarshmallowSnowDon actually engaging with his fellow posters R0 rather than simply giving us the benefit of his instruction

Danaquestionseverything · 16/01/2019 12:02

Those Hart boys (sorry men) are beautiful humans. I wasn't aware that coercive control was even a thing until I read about their story.

A bit off topic but DH and I were discussing the recent behaviour of a couple we are friends with. And god love him (the knockabout tradie he is) he was expressing concern about some of the controlling attitudes the husband had after holidaying together.

That's why this ad is important, yes there's an element of corporate pandering, but it's bringing forth discussions. Important ones. That as a society should have been had a long time ago.

MarshmallowSnowDon · 16/01/2019 12:05

“MarshmallowSnowDon

Have a read of the HuffPost article above by Luke Hart, have a think and perhaps you'll realise how utterly crass your comment is in the context of this thread.” OK then. I’ll go read it...

LangCleg · 16/01/2019 12:09

Don't infer an invitation to return with lordly pronouncements about it though, eh?

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 16/01/2019 12:10

I'm normally pretty anti being lectured on social issues by commercial organisations

but I think the point is that Gillette have been very complicit in perpetuating the 'speedboats, sport, boys will be boys' vision of masculinity.

if they want to try to redress that then I say 'good'

we all know that anything that says 'a man is like this' where 'this' isn't simply an adult human who was born with a penis is perpetuating harmful sexist stereotypes.

R0wantrees · 16/01/2019 12:18

Those Hart boys (sorry men) are beautiful humans. I wasn't aware that coercive control was even a thing until I read about their story.

Recent Video raising awareness of coercive control, 'Walking On Eggshells

www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ycbf2

"Contains subject matter some viewers may find upsetting.

Coercive control is domestic abuse. Controlling or coercive behaviour was criminalised in 2015 - but it still affects hundreds of thousands of women in the UK.

Mumsnet, Women's Aid and Surrey Police have joined together to help raise awareness of the dangers of coercive control.

A new survey found 38% of Mumsnet users have suffered some form domestic abuse.

With thanks to:

Sadi Khan
Clo Winfield
Ryan and Luke Hart
Sutherland Shire Family Services

Help is available. Freephone 24-hour National Domestic Violence Helpline (run by Women’s Aid and Refuge) - 0808 2000 247.

If you fear for your immediate safety, or someone else's, please call 999. "

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

tellmewhenthespaceshiplands · 16/01/2019 12:29

Marshmallow
But plenty of men think it's quite funny to upskirt, clearly.

I was highlighting how there has been a minuscule shift in thinking but we've got so far to go. As demonstrated by the need for the law to tell men and boys upskirting isn't on.

tellmewhenthespaceshiplands · 16/01/2019 12:35

And if some Neanderthal men (or women) have a problem with the actual message in the ad they quite frankly need to do some inward looking and figure out why.

All these men on Twitter throwing their razors in the bin and declaring never to use Gillette again, where are they when yet more children are being groomed and abused? Are they all over Twitter when young girls get harassed walking to school in school uniform? Not giving a shit because it doesn't affect them, that's where.