Gillette advert

[GoulashSoup]

This popped up on my face book.

It is not going to solve all our problems but encouraging men to challenge other men’s behaviour is a good start.

Masculinity is never toxic. Not is femininity. Ignorance, cruelty and stupidity are toxic.

What is masculinity and femininity?

Toxic means harmful- surely its accepted there are aspects of both which can be clearly recognised as harmful both to individuals and society?

And if some harmful aspects of masculinity lead to others being abused, hurt or murdered then that needs addressing. Especially on the scale it happens.

hasn't watched ad for a few days but not sure it mentions the word toxic anyway?

I never stiffen when I hear a woman walking behind me. Do you?

No I don't, but I generally don't cross the street to avoid strange men, and I had ONSs in my younger days, many women are the same, so I don't really see an all pervasive fear of men you don't know. But I totally accept that I am wary of men in certain situations, what I asked you was what society could do to remove that fear ? How could you or anyone else ever be sure what a man intended ? Are men to adopt deferential posture, have their own pavements ? Who would need to police that ?

I cannot understand how you can't admit that a film made by a woman (is she even a parent herself?) telling men, many of whom will be parents, possibly grandparents, that "here's how you should, or should have been or should be conducting yourselveses towards your children" could be seen as patronising. As mentioned above how would you personally react to a multi national cosmetic company saying women ought to spend less time on their appearance accompanied by images of little girls watching their mums pouting into their smartphones and messages about how "she is worth more" I mean come off it.

What was wrong with Roger Federer smugly stroking his smooth chin ?

ElonMask

Your reaction seems quite emotion-led.

I've just re-watched the advert. Might you re-watch it and just listen to the actual words.

I am struggling to work out where the issues are.

Im more interested in logic than emotional reactions TBH (although of course respect that we all have feelings)

Also, its a bit naive to suggest that that this was the work of a single woman. Its an ad-campaign for a multi-national.

twitter.com/nazirafzal/status/1085148037385732097

Nazir Afzal OBE (born 1962[1]) is a British solicitor with experience in the legal areas of child sexual exploitation and violence against women. He is a practising Muslim, with outspoken views in favour of women's rights and against forced marriage, female genital mutilation and honour killings.[2][3]

Afzal spent most of his career in the Crown Prosecution Service, rising to be a Chief Prosecutor in North West England from 2011 to 2015, before leaving the CPS. He then served as chief executive of the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners. From 2018, he became the Chair of the Corporation Board at Hopwood Hall College in Rochdale, Greater Manchester.
wiki

I don't really see an all pervasive fear of men you don't know.
If you've never experienced it, you can't possibly understand it.

But I totally accept that I am wary of men in certain situations
Why is that?

what I asked you was what society could do to remove that fear?
Firstly, by men not tolerating and encouraging other men's shitty behaviour.

Eg:
There was a thread, not long ago, a bloke at talking to another bloke. Man A was saying he was splitting from his partner and moaning that she will take half of 'his' stuff. Man B sat and nodded and agreed. Why?
Why didn't Man B stand up and say,
"She's raised your kids, looked after your house for 10+ years, she's enabled you to earn what you've earned, she deserves more than half"

Or how about any bloke convicted of sexual assaults, why dont other men shun them and call them out on it?

How long do you think men would carry in groping women's arses if every bloke round him that saw him do it called him out on it and told him to pack it in instead of laughing and patting them in the back?
(Going out with a group of guys, this was a game, who could get away with groping the most. Watch groups of men in packed clubs, they'll carry a bottle in left hand and walk with their right hand palm out to 'accidently' brush women's bums. Then they'll get back to their group and report back. It's sickening to me and I never stood for it. Which got me labelled boring and the invites stopped)

How long do you think lazy men doing no housework or child care would last if every other man, and woman for that matter, that knew him called him a bone idle tosser and wanted nothing to do with him?
(I'm a single dad, I have no choice but to do everything. Other blokes I know play video games or go fishing, I get called a woman, a fairy, a gay etc when I suggest they should be helping more.)

Down the pub if a night, Man A says,
"New bar maids fit as fuck, I'd like to bend her over down in the cellar"
How long would that objectifying continue if his mates didn't laugh and agree but said,
"You know she's someone's daughter right? Not just something to fuel your fantasies"
(Another reason I don't get invited out by the men. They way they talk about women is disgusting. They'll not do it when the women are near obviously, but as soon as their backs are turned they'll critique every woman they see.)

Man A in the club bumps in to Man B.
Man B reacts violently.
Man Bs mates call out,
"Go on lad kick his head in"
Then a jolly time ensues of violence fueled by encouragement and alcohol. Instead his mates should be telling him to calm down, that it was accident.
(I was Man A)

Man A says to his mates,
"I don't know that lad over there, let's Batter the fucker"
His mates encourage him to attack the person and even join in.
(3 days in hospital was nice though, cracked rub, facial bruising, lovely time)

I understand not all men are like the sample size of the few hundred I've known in my life, but 90% of those I've known have been as above.

If an advert can get men talking and seeing their behaviour as less than great, then it can only be a good thing.

A powerful advert, it is about time men are the gatekeepers to their own actions as well as their actions as a group, not women.

That link to Nazir Afzal's Twitter has lots of predictable whataboutery, women abuse men cries, women drive men to suicide howls. Very, very depressing. It's as if because it sometimes happens to men, women can just shut the F up.

Good post KlutzyDraconequus

It's obvious to women how misogyny and violence is allowed to flourish. And of course, it's about 'look at the rack on that'.

Men who objectify women are getting mighty antsy overt this ad, because they think it's nothing like rape/assault.

No it isn't, but it's on the same spectrum. Because objectification and dehumanisation is necessary for the rest to occur.

The reason why men are seeing this advert as patronising is because they don't see the power difference between men and women. Trying to switch the roles is impossible. Because women don't go around intimidating, bullying and objectifying men.

Using the word patronising suggests everyone is completely aware of it and it's really not something that needs to be dealt with.

No they're not, and yes it does.

That link to Nazir Afzal's Twitter has lots of predictable whataboutery, women abuse men cries, women drive men to suicide howls. Very, very depressing. It's as if because it sometimes happens to men, women can just shut the F up.

I wonder if the men complaining on Nazir Afzal's twitter account are aware of the role he played in prosecuting many of the men who systematically groomed, assaulted, raped and abused girls in the Rochdale area etc.

Or how about any bloke convicted of sexual assaults, why dont other men shun them and call them out on it?

see Gina Martin's experience.
(I heard her being interviewed this week, she described how the men around the perpetrator and the male security guards at the festival did not take the offence against her seriously at the time.)

(extract)
"Speaking after the bill was approved, Ms Martin said: “Eighteen months ago I was upskirted at a music festival and I decided I wasn’t going to brush it off.

“I was tired of ‘ignoring it’. I felt this was wrong and I was astounded to learn that upskirting wasn’t a sexual offence. I wanted to change this for everyone, because the least we deserve is to be able to wear what we want without non-consensual photos being taken of us.”

MP who blocked upskirting bill sparks outrage for blocking FGM bill

What is upskirting and why are people trying to make it illegal?

Ms Martin, a writer, was waiting to watch The Killers perform at British Summer Time music festival in London’s Hyde Park when a man put his phone between her legs and took pictures of her crotch.

After informing the police, she was shocked to discover upskirting was not a specific offence. A few days later, she published a Facebook post detailing her experience which went viral as other women shared similar experiences." (continues)

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3481011-Upskirting-finally-to-become-a-criminal-offence

there was NOTHING toxic about the original Gillette advert
No, and it's a good advert for the time. And I don't particularly like this current one, it's emotive but it doesn't make me want to buy their razors. In fact it doesn't even try to sell them to me.
I do agree, having thought about it, that companies need to stop positioning themselves politically and morally.
If anything, this kind of message needs to be on a public safety announcement, not an advert.

FlyingOink

On similar lines I remember Pepsi having to pull their advert featuring a Kardashian when they decided to venture down the woke path.

I do agree, having thought about it, that companies need to stop positioning themselves politically and morally.

There has always been political and moral positioning in some adverts.

Its interesting to consider that what seems to be objections from some men of 'sexism'

www.businessinsider.com/26-sexist-ads-of-the-mad-men-era-2014-5?r=US&IR=T#1952-this-ad-makes-light-of-domestic-violence-3

Jesus wept, those ads

so I don't really see an all pervasive fear of men you don't know.
Exactly. You don’t see it and you don’t know what it’s like. And yet, when women try and tell you what it’s like, you call it patronising.

It’s pure Margaret Atwood:
‘At core, men are afraid women will laugh at them while at core, women are afraid men will kill them.’

Jesus wept, those ads

I genuinely don't think that a lot of people understand how recent women's rights are. And just because we have rights, doesn't mean to say that attitudes have changed.

Which is why when MRAs say but you have equal rights now, so shut up, they don't get it.

The attitude in those adverts is overt and might look shocking. But it's an attitude that is still born out by men's behaviour everywhere.

current important thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3481763-Renee-Gerlich-By-the-numbers-The-oppression-of-women-and-girls-globally-join-the-dots

If woman cannot influence or control male behaviour, if only men can do that then we're kind of stuffed anyway.

It's patronising because of the smuggery.

And I don't see how adverts like this really make women feel safer, your kind of dodging the question, men are bigger and stronger than us and they may wish us harm, I have no way of knowing whether they do or not. And I never will. Do you regard women who hookup with men they just met to be lunatics ? It is not possible for your wariness of men to be erased. Tell me how you could be sure any random man was "safe" ?

It's patronising because of the smuggery.

[Hmm]

Its a shame you don't read and consider what has been posted.

Good grief.

No, it's not possible for wariness of men to be erased, and no, you never know which makes can be trusted. This is the reality of female existence, and adverts won't change it.

What might help the situation improve is if every time men were encouraged to aim high and bring their brothers along with them, they didn't whine like scalded cats and say "You can't tell me what to do!"

Fucksake, the tantruming about men being asked to consider their behaviour is like convincing a petulant and reluctant teenager to tidy their bedroom. It's that level of juvenile response.

Increasing numbers of women are aware of DARVO as a pattern of attempted control.

D Deny
A Attack
RVO Reverse Victim and Offender

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

Plus this advert is encouraging men to stop boys fighting, encouraging men to stop yelling after women, comedy groping and sexual harassment for laughs, catcalling, street harassment, excusing toxic masculinity with a shrug and a boys will be boys.

These are things that can absolutely be changed.

Loads can be changed. Women can, and do, change culture.

It wasn't long ago that women weren't allowed to wear trousers in the office, and had to put up with pornographic calendars in the workplace.

I don't have a solution as to how to prevent men raping and killing women. But I do know that calling out this sort of behaviour is part of it.

There has always been political and moral positioning in some adverts.
Agreed, and I hate the "stupid housewife" tropes just as much. I just think these companies know what they're doing, none of them are on anyone's side.
It's basically emotional blackmail.
I like the message of the advert, it was moving. But it's got nothing to do with razors and I don't want a razor company dictating public morality. Because as pp have said, it can easily go the other way.
Party political broadcasts are governed by rules on length, content etc. Why are multinationals allowed to do this? Just because we might like the message doesn't mean it should be made.