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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gillette advert

299 replies

GoulashSoup · 15/01/2019 08:05

This popped up on my face book.

It is not going to solve all our problems but encouraging men to challenge other men’s behaviour is a good start.

OP posts:
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18
RagingWhoreBag · 16/01/2019 22:22

ElonMask the Gillette ad also has a dad holding his daughter and repeating “I am strong” so it’s not just about how dads treat their sons, but their daughters too. Women have been told since the dawn of advertising how we can do better.

ElonMask · 16/01/2019 22:54

The examples you gave are quite clearly not the same, if you can see no difference between an advert selling a product designed to make someone's life easier and one that explicitly tells men how they should interact with their own and other people's children in order to be the "best they can be" then im not sure your being honest about it. Don't patronise women is one message accompanied by image of sad helpless woman.

I spoke to my ds about it and he said imagine L'Oréal making an advert (directed by an mra) showing women pouting on Instagram or applying beauty products in front of their daughters, and a voiceover by a man saying "is this what we are really worth" or some such similar platitude ? I doubt it would go down well. I pointed out to him that the difference would be the alleged societal and personal harm caused by the behaviour, but whichever way you look at it is effectively holding men responsible for other men and boys behaviour. Women are not held responsible in the same way.

ElonMask · 16/01/2019 23:01

Now, if Gillette had made an advert telling men not to watch porn, that I could support.

ElonMask · 16/01/2019 23:15

Sympathy? Nah - overrated. I’d settle for not having to wonder whether I should cross the road cos there’s a man walking behind me.

I find this mindset interesting. I too am of course wary, but I cannot imagine ever not being wary, I guess it is the same for men, how could they ever be sure other men were not going to attack them, you cannot read someone's mind and I doubt there has ever been or ever will be a time women are not wary of strange men, especially when vulnerable.

FloralBunting · 16/01/2019 23:16

It is effectively holding men responsible for other men and boys behaviour.

Yes. It is. So what? That's the bloody point. The 'boys will be boys' dismissal is the encouragement to ignore other men and boys behaviour. One measly fucking ad saying the opposite and the sky falls in. Seriously, this is the best example of hysterical man-babyism I've come across in ages.

I'm on record as saying I think it's cynical shite, but even I am sick of the macho whining about how they're all doing all this noble stuff already and don't need Gillette telling them they should.

Like fuck they are. Either the vast numbers of women who reported sexist abuse through #metoo are significant, or it was perpetrated by a roving gang of twenty nasty fellas that no other man ever interacted with.

Men need to own their shit. Over-emotional tears.

FloralBunting · 16/01/2019 23:16

*over-emotional twats

Queenofthedrivensnow · 16/01/2019 23:22

Thanks for sharing made me proper dry!!

Queenofthedrivensnow · 16/01/2019 23:22

Cry!!*

JeremyPacman · 16/01/2019 23:22

"if you can see no difference between an advert selling a product designed to make someone's life easier"

Those are toys aimed at teaching children that housework is for women.

If you can't see that. Well..let's just stop there.

JeremyPacman · 16/01/2019 23:23

Except for the make up one. That's about teaching little girls that looking pretty is important.

JeremyPacman · 16/01/2019 23:24

" Seriously, this is the best example of hysterical man-babyism I've come across in ages."

So much this ^^

ElonMask · 16/01/2019 23:33

Men need to own their shit. Over-emotional tears.

Men and women are responsible for men's "shit", sure as hell I feel responsible for giving my son the right guidance in life. I often hear mothers say stuff like "boys will be boys", or jokingly, "I wish I had girls."

JeremyPacman

Women buy make up, loads of it. These adverts are not the same, an advert explicitly criticising mothers for buying make up or for wearing it in front of their kids would be the equivalent.

ElonMask · 16/01/2019 23:36

Except for the make up one. That's about teaching little girls that looking pretty is important.

Looking pretty is very much important to a whole load of women, and it seems very likely that their female children will pick up on that. All for an advert asking them if this is "the best they can be" ?

FlyingOink · 16/01/2019 23:58

Just in case you wanted to know what was being said on the other side of the internet.
I love this one:
Can you imagine a campaign telling women how they should be?

Gillette advert
Gillette advert
Gillette advert
FloralBunting · 17/01/2019 00:04

Oh, I'm sobbing at the poor wee dears having to deal with a backhanded positive message to be decent men.

What kind of bloody minded dick says in response to someone telling them "Remember to be a decent guy" - "Fuck you, I'm a stellar guy, and if I'm not it's because you asked me to remember to be one. BITCH."

ack.

FlyingOink · 17/01/2019 00:23

Yeah but

Isn't even a man
Wants to redefine manhood

Is so perfect

FloralBunting · 17/01/2019 00:25

www.instagram.com/p/Bsq3zFDlnAF/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=wzjk2hrssukm

Just seen this. Rather good, I thought.

Datun · 17/01/2019 01:18

I don't think these men realise that women have been talking about this since forever. Every single damn time you ask men to clean up their act they can't stand it.

Won't admit it, it won't own it, won't acknowledge it.

You could set a bloody clock by the reaction.

Because they need toxic masculinity. Without it there would be no patriarchy. The underlying threat is necessary.

Otherwise they would just say, cor, you're bloody right. It's awful.

EJennings · 17/01/2019 04:01

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yeetma · 17/01/2019 04:55

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BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 17/01/2019 06:19

I assume that ^ is sarcasm

otherwise - yeesh

Floisme · 17/01/2019 06:29

I find this mindset interesting.
Blimey and you tell women we're being patronising.

I too am of course wary, but I cannot imagine ever not being wary, I guess it is the same for men, how could they ever be sure other men were not going to attack them,
No need to remind us, we worry about our sons, brothers, fathers.
But thank you for agreeing that the fear is of 'other men'. I never stiffen when I hear a woman walking behind me. Do you?

And yes, we know, some women commit violent or sexual crime but in very small numbers - I believe sex crime is 98% male. Statistically it's men, as a group (yes yes not all) who present the risk: to women, to each other, even to themselves We know this, you know this. And yet whenever we try and talk about it, a man goes on the defensive. (Thankfully not all of them - some do get it.)

What is so infuriating, and really very sad, is that advert was saying it doesn't have to always be like this, that most men are decent people. It could actually have been an opportunity to start a conversation about how we'd all like to live.

R0wantrees · 17/01/2019 06:40

Embedded link
Nov 19, 2018 article by Luke & Ryan Hart

"It is scary to be a young man today, and that’s why we need to change what it means to be a man'

Today is International Men’s Day.

Trump was right: It is scary to be a young man today, and that’s why we need to change what it means to be a man.

76% of suicides are men

71% of homicide victims are men

Men are the majority victims of violent crime

It sure looks terrifying to be a man. Statistics trump feminism, right? Especially when us men have such a scary reality to confront every day, we surely don’t have time for feminism?

Let’s now look at the flip side of the coin; the perpetrators of violent crime. Drum roll:

78% of violent crime is committed by men

76% of homicide perpetrators are men

92% of domestic abuse perpetrators are men

Oh.

Well, why are men abusing and killing women, children, other men and themselves at such an alarming rate?

Financial difficulties?

Discovering their partner was having an affair?

Divorce?

Hard childhood?

Hard day at work?

Waking up on the wrong side of the bed?

As we reach for the drawer of standard excuses for violence, let’s stop for a brief second and consider why the same factors don’t contribute to mass female violence in the same way.

It’s very hard indeed to avoid the conclusion that men are committing crimes simply because they’re men.

“Undoubtedly there are biological differences between men and women. Even if, as men, we are more predisposed to certain behaviours, it doesn't mean that we cannot veto them, or shape them and sublimate them.”
Men are not only killing each other and themselves, but specifically targeting women, especially those closest to them. Of those women murdered, 50% of women are killed by a partner or ex-partner compared to only 3% for men. We must realise that ‘being a man’ is at the root of almost all of the violence in our society.

Masculinity in society creates a very tight fit for men. We must be strong, we mustn’t cry, we must be leaders, we mustn’t need help, we must succeed in the only way we know; power. Not only does masculinity systematically oppress women, it also oppresses men themselves. In a world where men are unable to succeed in an outdated and tyrannical belief structure, but where they still choose to define themselves by their masculinity, they see themselves as failures. Without an outlet for their emotions and the willingness to seek help for their mental health, it is no surprise that men are 3 times more likely to take their own life than women are. These desperate men need to know it is OK to cry, to ask for help, to be a different kind of man.

Men who believe their identity is measured on how much they own or control, on their ability to enact power over others through violence and abuse, are plagued by incessant insecurity which leaves them in a state of mental turmoil. These men need freedom from the crushing expectations of their ideas of entitlement and masculinity. Someone who is willing to hurt or kill others is not someone who is happy.

Today, on International Men’s day we should not be celebrating men as we currently are. Instead, we need to acknowledge that we need to define a new man. We need to raise our boys in a world where they can be more free than the men that came before them, so they can be less violent, more compassionate and, ultimately, happier.

Men today genuinely believe they are victims. And this is almightily true. They are victims – of other men and of themselves. The solution: feminism and the deconstruction of rigid gender roles. Only then will violence begin to decrease. Only then will it no longer be so scary to be a young man today.

So, it is clear to us on International Men’s Day that, for the sake of men, we all need to be celebrating feminism."
www.operationlighthouse.co.uk/blog-1/it-is-scary-to-be-a-young-man

Gillette advert
Micaela64 · 17/01/2019 07:08

I still don't find the term useful and think it only hardens views on either side instead of changing anyone's mind, sorry. Masculinity is never toxic. Not is femininity. Ignorance, cruelty and stupidity are toxic. A toxic man isn't toxic because he's masculine, he's toxic because he's a rude, obnoxious dickhead. It has nothing to do with masculinity at all.

Men who show toxic behaviour aren't usually masculine in the slightest. It's a personality and upbringing problem.

And BTW there was NOTHING toxic about the original Gillette advert. If you watch it it shows a very positive example of masculinity and being a man. He is respectful to his wife, works hard and is shown to be a good father: There's no groping, bellittling, bullying or anything else so I'm unsure why Gillette and some in this thread (who described the original advert as encouraging a playboy "boys will be boys" lifestyle) are trying to re-write history.

Well watch it and make up your own mind anyway. Personally I think an advert like this (but maybe less cheesy!) does far more to inspire people to be a good man than the current one which will do nothing of the sort in most cases, hence the negative reaction.

FloralBunting · 17/01/2019 08:16

Shh, shh. If we never mention the negatives and only ever show men in soft focus, the bad stuff will just go away.