I used the girls' room for the first time today

[GrinitchSpinach]

from reddit mtf:

all comments affirming. They are delighted to have actual women apologizing for being in the 'wrong' place in the women's room. Absolutely no understanding of the fear any woman or girl might feel encountering a male person in a vulnerable, isolated space. Also: "little girls' room" for a 19 y.o. person...

Although we are deviating from the main point of the discussion, this branch is part of the wider discussion of women feeling uncomfortable at transwomen in their single-sex spaces.

Exactly. Unlike Layla Moran, most of us aren't blessed with the ability to read souls and predict accurately which male-bodied person in the ladies' room just wants to pee; which wants to take photos under the stall barriers; which wants to masturbate; which wants to rape; which will react calmly if challenged and which will hurt or kill us.

The two things aren't equal. Safeguarding is based on risk assessment. Should I object to getting DBS checked because I'm not a paedophile? My feelings take second place to the safety of the children who are being protected.

Absolutely, it's funny how people getting DBS checked tend to not refuse because NAPALT (not all people are like that).

Anyway, if transwomen don't like being in the mens I'm sure a third space would be possible in most places. If they don't like that option, it makes it clear it's not about their safety but about their desire to abuse women.

it just comes down to who’s feelings are more important

No. It comes down to risk management and class analysis. Why don't you stop presenting all TW as defenceless victims and nothing more? How about that?

It's worth realising that the days are past where tranwomen in women's toilets = Hayley Cropper/shy effeminate teenage boys.

The actor playing Hayley Cropper was of course female.

Guardian 2013 article with important background about formation of Press For Change and the lobbying for trans-rights. Includes interviews with prominant TRAs including Stephen Whittle, Paris Lees, Sarah Brown & Christine Burns:

(extract)
"Much of their campaigning remained on the quiet. The passage of the 2004 law to give trans people legal status was "remarkable," says Burns, because "the government was able to pass an entire act in parliament without anyone throwing a fit in the press". In popular culture, the activists became more forthcoming in their attempts to increase popular understanding of trans issues. Although the arrival of trans character Hayley Cropper in Coronation Street in 1998 was one breakthrough, Julie Hesmondhalgh, who plays Cropper, is a non-transsexual woman. Some believe one sign that minority groups are not taken seriously is when characters in popular culture are not played by members of that group (from the Black and White Minstrels of the 60s and 70s to non-disabled actors taking disabled parts). "I can advise any casting directors that there are plenty of transsexual actresses," says a medical professional involved in transition treatments. More inspiring for many younger trans people was the victory of Nadia Almada in Big Brother in 2004. Equally significant for a less visible part of the trans community was trans man Luke Anderson's Big Brother victory last year. But there still persist the likes of Little Britain and hundreds of other belittling jibes about "trannies" and "chicks with dicks"." (continues)

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

How is women's safety not an issue here?

I was in a bar with "unisex" toilets last night. There was a door then an area with 2 sinks then 2 cubicles. I found myself in a small space with 2 men. I felt very uneasy from a safety perspective.

If they had tried to attack me or or if it was a single male & he had, nobody would have known.

I instinctively take actions to keep myself safe. I recognise where there are risks - walking through busy parts of town, parking in busy well lit car parks etc.

I would never choose to put myself in that kind of situation. I don't believe most women would.

Surely we all recognise that what keeps us safe a lot of the time is having other people around us? People are rarely harassed at work or bullied if there is an audience for example.

I know this thread is about a trans person but still male bodied. How is this ok?

I know this thread is about a trans person but still male bodied. How is this ok?

The thread is about how women's needs for single sex spaces for safety, privacy and dignity are being compromised / denied.
Just as you describe.
The OP demonstrates the motivations of a particular male who identifies as trans.
The relevent fact is someone's sex not their gender identity.

Lizzyb, I cant decide if the women arguing for male bodied transwomen in women's loos have:

1. internalized misogyny, and will always place men's feels over the safety needs of women and children.
2. No experience of male violence, so cant possibly imagine a man using his greater physical strength to dominate/abuse women and/or children.
3. Are willfully obtuse, sticking to their own echo chambers while accusing women who identify real risks and concerns as 'hysterical' terfs.

And chances are if I'm in a space and someone threatens my safety it's massively likely that person will be male. So that risk needs to be kept out of my safe space

Ok, another, much worse reddit example, this time about changing rooms at a swimming pool (note this got 193 upvotes and fifty something positive comments):

GCSoc I shared this recently on another thread and have been wondering if it has relevence:

Understanding the features of coercive control eg gaslightling, the use of 'flying monkeys' is really important.

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/communication-success/201707/6-common-traits-narcissists-and-gaslighters

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/coercive-control-how-can-you-tell-whether-your-partner-is-emotio/

extract from article: "So who can become flying monkeys?

There are two different categories of people.

The first category is the naive.

The naive are people who are just clueless. They can’t see it, they can’t fathom it, they’ve never been through anything like that, so they can’t even imagine that somebody would do such a thing to just make up all these lies about you and spread them across town. They just can’t even fathom that a human would do that or maybe the naive is also the fawning type.

This is the type of people who when faced with a fight or flight dilemma, they choose fawning instead where they just melt into into a strong, dominant personality to feel safe and they don’t realize what’s happening. You might have noticed that even you became one of these flying monkeys when you were in your naive state before you woke up, before you figured out what was going on.

The second category of people who can become flying monkeys are the toxic.

These are the people with no boundaries. They love gossip and drama, they’re addicted to that stuff. They have an integrity problem and usually they want something from the narcissist. They want status, they want flattery, they want favours. They’re getting something out of the narcissist, which is why they’re willing to do their bidding." (continues)
medium.com/@OwnYourReality/flying-monkeys-the-narcissists-tool-for-the-smear-campaign-798daf7a59c0

thread re the importance of recognising coercive control:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

R0, I like the flying monkeys reference, thanks.

Its a very useful image too!

Sorry! We're used to constant brigading around here, so my patience is thin (also am a gobshite).

No worries for I am also a gobshite

I cant decide if the women arguing for male bodied transwomen in women's loos have:
1. internalized misogyny, and will always place men's feels over the safety needs of women and children.
2. No experience of male violence, so cant possibly imagine a man using his greater physical strength to dominate/abuse women and/or children.
3. Are willfully obtuse, sticking to their own echo chambers while accusing women who identify real risks and concerns as 'hysterical' terfs.

It can't be that they don't recognize male violence because the rationale is that male transpeople will be safer in female spaces away from other men.

They either must believe, despite evidence to the contrary, that male transpeople pose no risk to women. Or that it's women and girls role to protect vulnerable male people at their own expense.

GCSoc I'm sure there are many reasons but think it may have a relevence in some cases.

There was discussion about these issues on a recent thread:

I shared this article recently about 'diversion tactics'. Its worth reading

thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2016/06/20-diversion-tactics-highly-manipulative-narcissists-sociopaths-and-psychopaths-use-to-silence-you/

Datun replied:
I've just skimmed that R0, but this one lept out.

"Deliberately misrepresenting your thoughts and feelings to the point of absurdity."

Narcissists weave tall tales to reframe what you’re actually saying as a way to make your opinions look absurd or heinous. Let’s say you bring up the fact that you’re unhappy with the way a toxic friend is speaking to you. In response, he or she may put words in your mouth, saying, “Oh, so now you’re perfect?” or “So I am a bad person, huh?”

They chronically jump to conclusions based on their own triggers rather than stepping back to evaluate the situation mindfully. They act accordingly based on their own delusions and fallacies and make no apologies for the harm they cause as a result. Notorious for putting words in your mouth, they depict you as having an intention or outlandish viewpoint you didn’t possess. They accuse you of thinking of them as toxic – even before you’ve gotten the chance to call them out on their behavior – and this also serves as a form of preemptive defense."

I see that with the oh my God you think all trans people are rapists, you're saying trans people are paedophiles, you hate trans people. It's very effective. And a real bloody time waster."

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3464900-Reports-of-Macclesfield-pub-barring-woman-for-wearing-adult-human-female-T-shirt?pg=13

Omg that guy talking bout his bulge
Sounds to me like his imagination was running wild in his bedroom 😂😂

GCSoc I'd add a fourth option to your list: performing for pats on the head from someone male somewhere in their picture. Very common and deeply ingrained behaviour in women, particularly women whose sense of self esteem is based on men/male approval.

Most MIL threads come down to this one.

@ZuttZeVootEeeVro

I cant decide if the women arguing for male bodied transwomen in women's loos have'..

it can't be that they don't recognize male violence because the rationale is that male transpeople will be safer in female spaces away from other men.

They either must believe, despite evidence to the contrary, that male transpeople pose no risk to women. Or that it's women and girls role to protect vulnerable male people at their own expense.

I can only speak for myself and my opinion from before finding threads on mumsnet and deciding that actually I don't yet know enough to have an opinion, but...

Internalized mysogyny? Quite possibly yes. Uncomfortable as that feels. Awareness of what society does, does not protect me from existing inside that society and not always recognising it's effects on me.

No personal experience of male violence, though I have supported close friends in getting away from physical (and emotional) abusers too many times. Of course I can imagine male strength over female bodies, I don't have to have experienced it directly.

Not willfully obtuse, allbeit wasn't particularly willing to entertain the one friend I had who brought doubts into the conversations.

Yes I recognise male violence, as I perceive trans people to be at risk in male bathrooms.

I believed (and am now firmly in "I don't know enough yet" category) that male transpeople posed no more of a threat to women than other women. I wouldn't say "despite the evidence" because until recently I hadn't seen and didn't know of the existence of such evidence.

I was until recently naive in that I thought all trans people had, or wanted "the op" (for want of a less clumsy term) and hormone treatment. I now understand that this isn't the case.

I had never heard of TRAs or autogynae i still cant fucking spell it -phillia Now that I have, and have read and heard stories of trans widows, I understand concerns a bit more.

I was, and still am, coming from a place of wanting inclusivity and for all people to be safe and tolerant of others, regardless of gender and/or identity.

I still believe that there are people who were "born in the wrong body" (again, apologies for clumsy wording) and that it happens both directions. I now understand that auto wotsit also exists and muddies the water somewhat.

My opinion was not deliberately misogynistic, sexist, naive, or anything else. I'm, in general, an intelligent, well educated, lefty liberal who is working very hard to support and empower women and work towards equality. I just didn't have the full facts.

Knickknack
Yes, that!
I always forget that..

1. female misogynistic validation, women who can only feel good about themselves if given permission to by the guys..

Right, littlebrowndog? So glad this person felt so "completely relaxed and at home" walking through the women's changing room "tiddies out" and "cute as fuck bulge" on display all in the service of "normalising girls with dicks." And this person, just like the person in the OP, reads women's lack of confrontation as acceptance and approval of this scary, inappropriate behavior.

These male people pushing into our spaces either can't fathom women's legitimate fear and discomfort at all, simply don't care, or worst of all, get off on it.

Why don't you stop presenting all TW as defenceless victims and nothing more?

The irony.

My point was that actually a lot of it does come down to feelings. On a previous thread about lack of statistics, the ‘trump card’ so to speak from a lot of posters was ‘I say no, I don’t want a transwoman in the toilet careless of if they’re lovely etc’ so ultimately, it’s a feeling that you don’t want a transwoman there.

Yet a transwoman who feels as if she is a woman or who feels threatened in the men’s toilets is often told that their feelings don’t matter.

Yes there’s scientific evidence and statistics that men pose a threat to woman, I would never deny that. There’s also scientific evidence that gender dysphoria exists. There is statistics to show that men who don’t conform to masculine stereotypes are more likely to be assaulted. Im sure I read men are actually twice as likely to be a victim of assault in general and four times more likely to be attacked by a stranger (may be wrong though!)

Yes it is technically ‘not our problem’ but I do hate that attitude here, would you rather wait until it’s your son to make it your problem or should we be trying to help people who need it?

I don’t think the answer is allow anyone who says their a transwoman into the ladies, but to say that their feelings are not important or as valid as a woman takes us back to the age old saying ‘the root of all that is wrong in the world is the belief that one things life is worth more than another’

I'm, in general, an intelligent, well educated, lefty liberal who is working very hard to support and empower women and work towards equality. I just didn't have the full facts.

I don't suppose anyone knows how to find the excellent thread from last year. A woman had been talking with her sister (I think?) who followed all of her explanations and examples to oppose gender self-id but said that what was holding her back was that if true it would have been covered by The Guardian and BBC.

The impact of bias on what are relied upon by many to be reliable sources can't be underestimated.

Yes there’s scientific evidence and statistics that men pose a threat to woman, I would never deny that. There’s also scientific evidence that gender dysphoria exists. There is statistics to show that men who don’t conform to masculine stereotypes are more likely to be assaulted. Im sure I read men are actually twice as likely to be a victim of assault in general and four times more likely to be attacked by a stranger (may be wrong though!)

There is a desparate need to deal with male violence against other males.
It is complex.
Naming it for what it is will be the best place to start.

I was, and still am, coming from a place of wanting inclusivity and for all people to be safe and tolerant of others, regardless of gender and/or identity.

This is going to look goady but isn't meant to be. Thinking about inclusivity, if Stefonknee* wanted to be enrolled in a Year 2 class, would you consider a refusal to be justifiably non-inclusive?

• if you look into the details of this individual you will struggle to believe what you're reading

Yet a transwoman who feels as if she is a woman or who feels threatened in the men’s toilets is often told that their feelings don’t matter.

I don't think people are saying that. There is a conflict here between the right of women not to have men in women-only spaces, and the right of a man who feels as if he is a woman (whatever that means) to be validated as the woman he thinks he is.

Since people can't change sex, which of these rights do you think should be prioritised?

If a man who thinks he is a woman feels threatened in the men's toilets, who do you think should be most invested in finding a solution for that, men or women?

There is statistics to show that men who don’t conform to masculine stereotypes are more likely to be assaulted.

Who are they likely to be assaulted by? Men or women? Whose responsibility is this to sort out?

I know this is mumsnet, but the women here are not everyone's mother.