I used the girls' room for the first time today

[GrinitchSpinach]

from reddit mtf:

all comments affirming. They are delighted to have actual women apologizing for being in the 'wrong' place in the women's room. Absolutely no understanding of the fear any woman or girl might feel encountering a male person in a vulnerable, isolated space. Also: "little girls' room" for a 19 y.o. person...

differentiating between those who are sexual motivated and those with gender dysphoria?

Stonewall says they are both equally valid trans identities and should not be discriminated against.

From his POV I understand It must have been incredibly hard to spend years binding your breasts, cutting your genitals, attempting suicide and hiding what you feel, to then come out and lose everyone including your family over who you are. Once you’ve gone through all of that and have had surgery or similar, to then be told to hop on back to where you came from cus you ain’t one of us, it must stick the knife in. I understand why some woman are against it, but I also understand why what you see as ‘validation’ can be so important to them. You never know what battles someone has faced to feel they desperately need that validation

Yeah sorry to be so harsh, but I don't care. I have my own battles to fight.
And currently I have two battles on my hands. One is misogyny at it's finest (involves two different men in different places so actually two battles) and the other is a huge bunch of men all being socks. So of my 2(3) battles.
I too lost all my family to early deaths, I too have had surgery. I don't want validation from men, I want a loo (prison if it becomes necessary, hospital ward when necessary, changing room) to be single sex. I do not want a man in there regardless of grc.
And you do not get to choose that for me. You don't get to say, but this is my mate, she is lovely and wouldn't hurt a fly. I don't want "her" in there.
I can imagine that with one of my current battles if that man could legally come in the loo with me just how bad it would be. I imagine very very bad.

we’re mean, transwomen are harmless, men will rape us anyway, it’s not a choice it’s a soul an essence a bit of gray matter a hormone wash an exposure to plastics who knows but it’s real real real and and it means SO much, we just can’t understand how much it means to be accepted as a woman, and why can’t we just be NICE about it and say yes?
You missed out chemtrails, fluoride in water, and feminist teachers but yes, this is it.

Fixed this:

"Obviously unless you are transgender a woman (adult human female) yourself, it is impossible [for a male] to know why and how they feel the way they do."

I looked at the (abstract for) the paper, Earlywalker. Sample size of 42 is rather small, and it's an old paper by now.

So I looked for a more recent review, and found this, which says:

'For a number of sexually dimorphic brain structures or processes, signs of feminisation or masculinisation are observable in transsexual individuals, which, during hormonal treatment, partly seem to further adjust to characteristics of the desired sex. Still, it appears the data are quite inhomogeneous, mostly not replicated and in many cases available for male-to-female transsexuals only. As the prevalence of homosexuality is markedly higher among transsexuals than among the general population, disentangling correlates of sexual orientation and gender identity is a major problem.'

Not clear how they are defining 'transsexual' from that, but yes, I'm prepared to accept that small structural brain differences may cause the dysphoria in some people.

But there is overwhelming evidence that people ARE the sex they are, and tiny, barely-there evidence that they are 'really' the opposite sex.

Does no one think that an important factor would be to work on differentiating between those who are sexual motivated and those with gender dysphoria? More attention on behalf of medical professionals to differentiate?

I want and need sex segregated spaces. Why are you trying to negotiate them away?

“Sexually dimorphic brain structures or processes” Sounds very dubious to me.
Dysphoria is essentially a denial of reality whether that’s a limb or DNA I don’t believe this is anything to do with structural differences in brains.
What needs to be ‘worked on’ is the make assumption that their rights override female rights at all costs.

male not make

Earlywalker

There is some limited evidence that homosexual transsexual brains have some structural similarities with those of women. However it seems this effect does not occur with heterosexual MTFs. What they do have is an emphasis on the part of the brain related to self perception.

No one thinks the psychological condition gender dysphoria doesn't exist. But it doesn't make a male person a woman.

These studies also can't control for neuroplasticity.

Does no one think that an important factor would be to work on differentiating between those who are sexual motivated and those with gender dysphoria? More attention on behalf of medical professionals to differentiate?

I do. It would help rip to shreds the ridiculous 'trans umbrella', and would help with safeguarding. And it would hopefully blow self ID completely out of the water. It could surely only be helpful if there was a way to accurately diagnose true dysphoria early to prevent GNC and/or gay teens from permanently damage.

I want and need sex segregated spaces. Why are you trying to negotiate them away?

But that still remains a need. Women still need their spaces, it's not negotiable. TS women may also need their own spaces - separate issue.

But there is overwhelming evidence that people ARE the sex they are, and tiny, barely-there evidence that they are 'really' the opposite sex.

There is no evidence for this. How can there be?

Sex is a description of your reproductive potential. Not the structure of your brain, or the way you think.

Being effeminate (or feminine), is not a description of reproductive potential.

No one thinks the psychological condition gender dysphoria doesn't exist. But it doesn't make a male person a woman.

If "gender dysphoria" really does exist, how come it is not expressed by adult heterosexual females whereas it is frequently expressed by adult heterosexual males?

Jacky, I think a tiny fraction of the people who claim to have gender dysphoria actually do so.

Where is your evidence for that jacky? I’ve not heard that before. I would hazard a guess to say it may have something to do with the fact most heterosexual adult females are mothers, and as mothers, we tend to be conditioned to do whatever we can to protect our children, even if it’s really not what we want to do. I don’t think all men necessarily feel the same way. In other words, she may choose to be miserable in herself than cause upset to her children. But I don’t know, I’m not one.

Seeing my friend transition though, I would argue anyone who try’s to pretend GD doesn’t exist. It’s offensive, if I said depression doesn’t exist I’m sure I’d get jumped on. Just because you can’t see it or feel it yourself, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

But there is overwhelming evidence that people ARE the sex they are, and tiny, barely-there evidence that they are 'really' the opposite sex.

Yep, I didn't express that well.

What I meant was: there may be small-but-significant shifts of brain structure towards the female norm and away from the male norm.

Meanwhile, the presence of a penis and lack of a vagina, the presence of a Y chromosome and lack of second X, the presence of testicles and absence of ovaries, etc, are much more significant and in-yer-face indications that such people are closer to the male norm rather than the female.

Horses, not zebras.

I have a question actually.
Why is the mere subject of transgendism seen as such a ‘men vs woman’ debate in your eyes? Transmen are coming out too. I know it doesn’t affect woman but if the whole point of transgendism was for men to steal woman’s spaces, what would be the point of a transman?
After all, we can’t have one rule of boundary for half a group and another for the other. That would take us back to men and woman having different rights. So any implications that you want to happen for transwomen will obviously have to apply to transmen too.

Seeing as one of the big disagreements on here is regarding PTSD or religious reasons for not wanting to share a toilet with a man, but being too polite to ask if they’re a man so instead being in fear and never returning to those spaces etc... surely if a tall, muscly, boob-less person walks in with a beard and a deep voice, this would be traumatising too? Even if they were biologically female.

Seeing my friend transition though, I would argue anyone who try’s to pretend GD doesn’t exist.

Few are saying that GD doesn't exist. Most are saying that GD doesn't mean that sex segregation should be removed.

So any implications that you want to happen for transwomen will obviously have to apply to transmen too.

early, You've been on these boards loads. Are you seriously asking this question?

I didn’t say sex segregation shouldn’t exist, I was responding to the post above.

Yes datun because no one answers the question. You come back with stuff like ‘we can tell it’s a woman’ erm, no sorry but a lot of the time you can’t. Or ‘transmen pose no risk to men so they can carry on’ but you can’t seriously believe that would work, that the government would implement rules indirectly casting transwoman as a danger.

My suggestions have been picked apart, so I’m asking for yours on how this would be handled in your ideal world of trans people using their own toilets (if no third space)

I didn’t say sex segregation shouldn’t exist, I was responding to the post above.

So who are you arguing with and why?

My suggestions have been picked apart, so I’m asking for yours on how this would be handled in your ideal world of trans people using their own toilets (if no third space)

People know what sex they are.
People should know that humans can't change sex.

This would be a good starting point.

Zutt if you can’t be bothered to read that’s fine but don’t expect me to do it for you.

That’s great rowan but I’m not too sure what you’re getting at? Make it law that trans people use the toilet for biological sex, with no exceptions and then if you see someone who looks like a bloke in the toilet you’ll feel fine because he’s obvs a transman?

Presumably, women will know that such a law exists, and that the male-looking person will either be trans or a bloke who shouldn't be there, and will thus feel able to challenge them because it still wouldn't be acceptable for blokes to be in female spaces.

As opposed to the situation you appear to be arguing for that women be compelled to allow male bodied people in because they feel womanly, and thus the layer of protection of social taboo is removed and women no longer feel they can challenge a male body in their spaces.

I'm not sure this is quite the stumper you think it is.