Prostitution / Pornography/ Surrogacy.

[Cismyfatarse1]

Help!

DS who is ridiculously clever, 18 and knows everything has been, along with DD (16) (Alsoclever but prepared to admit to not knowing everything) arguing amicably with me on and off all day.

Both of them were arguing that women should be free to choose to be prostitutes / porn stars / rent out their wombs.

I disagreed vehemently because we can't have laws that allow exploitation of the most vulnerable. Plus, these (particularly the first two) make women commodities for men.

Any clear arguments I can use? Links? Sources.

DS - who is gay - didn't see that if prostitution was so desirable a job, then men would do it. He also didn't see that consent is not really consent if you are vulnerable or being groomed / exploited. His life has been quite comfy. DD - no real life experience, didn't get that, as women, we are often seen as vessels for carrying / entering and that a penis in your mouth / cunt / bum is very different from just being physically close with someone who you don't fancy.

Both of them insisted that porn is watched by lots of women and that porn star is a desirable job for some and that porn stars are safe.

I gave it my all but really do want them to SEE!! Their generation, they argue, is not uptight about sex so selling it is no big deal.

Thoughts?

If you think that women shouldn't be allowed to make choices for themselves then doesn't that say a lot about you? And I actually know a lot a men who have said that if there was a market for it they would consider a job alike to prostitution. There just isn't as much money involved on the other side of the industry.

They will almost certainly agree it's a right that every human should be able to experience one if possible.

There you go.

I'm saddened by this I really am.

At one point you said 'I don't know of any men who see women a receptacle for their spunk'.

Through the course of this conversation, that's ultimately what you're paying a woman to be.

I will never persuade you to stop visiting them, but next time you do, take a coffee with you, pay her, and tell her you've been called away. I can guarantee it will be one of the better hours in her day.

And I actually know a lot a men who have said that if there was a market for it they would consider a job alike to prostitution.

Because they think it's lovely jubbly sex for money.
Ask them if they'll bend over and have 60 year old unclean bloke wanting to shove his cock up their arse or down their throats or both.

You talk utter shite man.

Ask them if they'll bend over and have 60 year old unclean bloke wanting to shove his cock up their arse or down their throats or both.

Do you understand that when you write stuff like this, it implies that it would be OK if it was a 20 year old clean man instead?

Actually I have a hunch he is eminently convincable. I just think he's been kidding himself that he can detect women in a desperate bind. I mean if had the power to read the female mind like that he'd be able to find the odd woman to have a friends with benefits type arrangement that would suit him. I don't think he'll admit it to me here, but I think it's struck a nerve, and upon further reflection he may have a rethink in private.

Ask your children to try and think globally, rather than domestically.

My thoughts on prostitution, surrogacy and pornography are that they are shaped like icebergs - and at the very very tip are the women who have a genuine choice, free from poverty and abuse.

Below the surface, the overwhelming majority of women and girls who are prostitutes, surrogates and are filmed for pornography are doing do under unimaginable duress, with no possible route out.

I can't in good faith say I support a women's right to be a sex worker without feeling this erodes even further the chances that an abused child could escape this.

My priority is how to provide escape routes and support to bring women and girls out of the hell they're in, not how to encourage privileged women to enter into it however willingly they feel they want to.

This thread is a repeat performance.

Sometimes best not to engage.

They will almost certainly agree it's a right that every human should be able to experience one if possible.

There you go

You dont someone else to have an orgasm...that was their point

And yes i agree r0wan especially if even very simple concepts are whooshing straight over pjs head

I don't disagree with the iceberg theory, but feel there are a lot more woman doing it out of choice than not.

That's choice as in 'I could be on the dole/ in a min wage job and just about manage' as opposed to 'I could have £500 in my handbag by the weekend'

That kind of choice. Which is still a choice IMO. But some on here would insist not.

thorny

ask your children to try and think globally, rather than domestically

Thats a good idea

Perhaps we disagree about the size of the the iceberg's tip, but it feels disingenuous at best to be in support of prostitution without at least acknowledging that the majority of women and girls in prostitution don't have a choice, no?

I'm trying to imagine what their lives are like and what they'd think if they could overhear the rhetoric of 'yeah but they had expensive shoes on so it's ok'.

I'm trying to imagine what their lives are like and what they'd think if they could overhear the rhetoric of 'yeah but they had expensive shoes on so it's ok'.

If someone is wearing £700 shoes, then they either
(a) don't have any real financial problems, or
(b) can't make sensible spending decisions.

PJ sigh you're telling me you have no trouble detecting complex issues in a strangers life, yet find social situations awkward. Can you not see a whopping contradiction there?

The presence of a pair of £700 shoes or an iPad ISN'T emblemetic of a life free from abuse nor trauma.

You also said upthread that you don't think many women would be open to a friends with benefits situation (I happen to disagree there but hey!), yet there are legions of women willing to enjoy casual sex anyway with a nice little cash boost as well. Which is it? You are contradicting yourself.

This is PJ and all the other men like him who feel the need to stick their cocks into women who wouldn't entertain them if they weren't paying them. In their own words, describing human beings.

It's not pleasant reading.

Invisible Men

PJ, how come you're still not acknowledging the women and girls who don't get a choice?

C) someone bought the shoes for them

PJ, how come you're still not acknowledging the women and girls who don't get a choice?

I do. I have already said in this thread that the issue there is poverty, not sex work.

And you don't perceive how their disadvantage grows the more we normalise sex work as a mutual transaction instead of abuse?

I'm not being contrary - I genuinely struggle to understand the world view of those in favour of prostitution.

Ok so if they genuinely like your company (if not your body), how many do you think would agree to a casual coffee after your next session?

Also you said you shy away from social situations, which means by definition you get a lot less socialisation than you would otherwise.

I'm sorry but you can't have your cake and eat it. Either you are a decent sound compassionate man, that cares about others. Or you are a man that places his own physical pleasure above others. I could sort of accept you a bit more if you were just honest and said "Actually yeah mate I really don't give THAT much of a crap I just really like sex above and beyond any of these other concernes" It's this bonkers mental gymnastics where you seem to want to present yourself as fundementally good man AND get to enjoy using people for sex. No sorry you don't get to have both.