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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Prostitution / Pornography/ Surrogacy.

238 replies

Cismyfatarse1 · 29/12/2018 19:34

Help!

DS who is ridiculously clever, 18 and knows everything has been, along with DD (16) (Alsoclever but prepared to admit to not knowing everything) arguing amicably with me on and off all day.

Both of them were arguing that women should be free to choose to be prostitutes / porn stars / rent out their wombs.

I disagreed vehemently because we can't have laws that allow exploitation of the most vulnerable. Plus, these (particularly the first two) make women commodities for men.

Any clear arguments I can use? Links? Sources.

DS - who is gay - didn't see that if prostitution was so desirable a job, then men would do it. He also didn't see that consent is not really consent if you are vulnerable or being groomed / exploited. His life has been quite comfy. DD - no real life experience, didn't get that, as women, we are often seen as vessels for carrying / entering and that a penis in your mouth / cunt / bum is very different from just being physically close with someone who you don't fancy.

Both of them insisted that porn is watched by lots of women and that porn star is a desirable job for some and that porn stars are safe.

I gave it my all but really do want them to SEE!! Their generation, they argue, is not uptight about sex so selling it is no big deal.

Thoughts?

OP posts:
CritEqual · 30/12/2018 18:53

First of all NO-ONE is 100% at detecting deception. Even if you are naturally talanted and recieve training you're looking at little over 50% at detecting lies. So you're "screening" I'm afraid is simply put impossible.

You still have a margin of error and unless you're going to lay claim to magic powers of some kind you can't. Ergo you are basically willing to accept the risk you ARE hurting someone, and ultimately don't care.

Part of the whole thing you're buying is this notion of consequence free sex so of course everyone involved is financially incentivised to allow you that delusion. So again why should anyone listen to you in this debate as clearly your orgams > other people?

53rdWay · 30/12/2018 18:59

If no one in the world fancied you, would you abstain from sex completely, or would you be prepared to have sex with people that weren't attracted to you (regardless of their motivation, financial or otherwise)?

It's pretty telling that you think other people's answer to that would be "oh gosh no, I'd still require someone out there to provide me with the sex I consider myself entitled to, whatever their motivation."

LegendaryPJ · 30/12/2018 19:01

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CritEqual · 30/12/2018 19:02

Look my dude just a small observation, stop making sex the end goal and just treat life like the adventure it is. Meet some people, have some fun, you'll find sex (and really good sex at that!) will happen more often than you might think.

LegendaryPJ · 30/12/2018 19:03

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TornFromTheInside · 30/12/2018 19:04

Here's a little ponderable...

If she said 'I am disease free, don't use a condom' - would you believe that aspect of her profile?

I do understand what you are saying about trying to choose someone who doesn't seem under any duress and who is happy to have you as a client, I get that - I just think it's a bit naive to be so sure it's a sound process, and that she's just not a better saleswoman than you are a discerning judge.

To be fair, if / when you sleep with anybody you can never be 100% sure of the motives - and that's true in a ONS, or even a stable relationship. So paying a prostitute at least confirms it's a financial / sexual motive you both know where you stand.

I just don't like that it's funding an industry that ultimately isn't empowering women, to my mind it's an industry that is selling a woman's body for man's pleasure and I can't support that. It's a lot more difficult to resolve at a personal / individual level, but at the macro level it's simple for me. It's a no thank you.

CritEqual · 30/12/2018 19:05

VERY good point PJ, so we can move the discussion on towards discussion of consent and maybe perhaps making enthusiastic participation as the bar instead of a mere "yes".

MargueritaPink · 30/12/2018 19:05

If no one in the world fancied you, would you abstain from sex completely, or would you be prepared to have sex with people that weren't attracted to you (regardless of their motivation, financial or otherwise)?

I'd buy a vibrator.

LegendaryPJ · 30/12/2018 19:05

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53rdWay · 30/12/2018 19:08

A lot of women seem to agree with me on this one, actually.

No we don't, mate. But feel free to interpret reactions to Durex adverts (wtf) into giving you validation for your "the world owes me sex so cough up" mindset if it's so desperately, deeply important to you.

CritEqual · 30/12/2018 19:10

I think the thing women are objecting to is that men being THAT rubbish in bed, that they are maybe bothering to please their partner once a year at christmas, maybe, if they are lucky really is a bit shit. Do you think that might be it?

MargueritaPink · 30/12/2018 19:12

I'll go out on a limb here CritEqual but yes you might be on to something there but PJ can put you right if you're not.

LegendaryPJ · 30/12/2018 19:12

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LegendaryPJ · 30/12/2018 19:13

No we don't, mate. But feel free to interpret reactions to Durex adverts (wtf) into giving you validation for your "the world owes me sex so cough up" mindset if it's so desperately, deeply important to you.

You should take that up with the women who left those comments then.

pachyderm · 30/12/2018 19:13

Ugh, no, no-one has the right to sex! Why don't you get that? Of course I wouldn't pay for sex! The idea is repulsive to me. I wouldn't do that to another human being even if I never had sex again.

R0wantrees · 30/12/2018 19:14

Surprised to see you back here PJ

EJennings · 30/12/2018 19:15

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53rdWay · 30/12/2018 19:15

You should take that up with the women who left those comments then.

If you can't see the difference between "sexual partners should care about each other's pleasure" and "I am entitled to have sex with people who don't actually want to have sex with me", I don't know where to begin, honestly.

CritEqual · 30/12/2018 19:15

So prostitutes are basically a cruch you use to avoid having to get out and face life? In that case it's basically something of an addiction?

Look I can sympathise with your mental health issues all the live long day, and indeed I could probably point you at some resources that might help you resolve them, but if you're basically saying you don't even really like people all that much, but you still want to use one for sex occasionally that paints a pretty bleak and wretched picture of your own life. I believe you can do a lot better...

LegendaryPJ · 30/12/2018 19:16

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CritEqual · 30/12/2018 19:17

And OMG if you're thinking a sex workers enthusiasm is genuine? Well I know a nigerian prince who needs a few thousand dollars to get at his fortune I can put you in touch with...

LegendaryPJ · 30/12/2018 19:18

Mainstream economists are predicting 40% unemployment rates in developing economies within a generation. Touting the female body as a labor site is prepping girls and women for the time when men shove a great number of us out of the workforce.

Actually, most job losses will be in manual labour... jobs dominated by men.

TornFromTheInside · 30/12/2018 19:18

A woman's sexual pleasure is usually born of her desire to spend time of her own volition in a mutually enjoyable physical manner with both parties wanting to please each other and achieve mutual satisfaction.

When you visit a prostitute, you are not fulfilling her sexual needs, you are fulfilling her financial ones. She may or may not get some pleasure in the process, but in all honesty, given you're one a fairly long line, I can't really see her physical needs have all been specially kept just for you to fulfil...

Women asserting that orgasm isn't a gift in no way correlates to agreement with you. I actually do not believe women assert that orgasm is a 'right' either. But I'll leave that to women to answer.
For the record, I 'think' they will say it's a desirable outcome, but neither yours nor theirs is a right in the context of having sex.

They will almost certainly agree it's a right that every human should be able to experience one if possible.

Isthisit01 · 30/12/2018 19:19

She can withhold any acts she doesn't want to do,

A prostitute doesn't want to do any of it. She tolerates it because she needs money.

CritEqual · 30/12/2018 19:19

Straw man, you can have sexual pleasure with yourself. Ok you might not prefer it, but it can sustain you and meet the physical need.