Can someone help me explain to DD14 why this isn't ok

[Inarticulated]

DD is 14, and her dad (exH) gave her this for Christmas.

She says it's fine, it's from Missguided, and she likes it.

I think it's vile and don't want her to go out in it.

We just compromised that she wore a coat over it to go to the shop. In my mild horror all I could come up with was "but but it says 'for men's entertainment' on it", and that's not my point.

Please help me form a coherent argument that a 14yo might listen to?

Here is the link,should you want www.missguided.co.uk/playboy-x-missguided-black-magazine-print-oversized-print-hoodie-dress-10125564

DD is 14, and her dad (exH) gave her this for Christmas.

I. have. no. words.

Please help me form a coherent argument that a 14yo might listen to?

"I will buy you a new iphone if you let me burn that."

Here you go. The first one is The Kooples. They are both vile.

I will buy you a new iphone if you let me burn that

Thank you for making me laugh!

*Please help me form a coherent argument that a 14yo might listen to?

"I will buy you a new iphone if you let me burn that."*

Brilliant!

I just showed it to my 14 year old and asked her if she would wear it?, she said “I don’t know much about playboy but isn’t it some kind of porn and people taking photos of young women?”, she then said “no way would I wear that”.

This is not teenager Top Trumps.

Marguerita -

The poster who suggested it used the word tramp, not me

""“It just looks so cheap”
“Did you get any comments about it yet?”

Act like you think it is unimaginative and lame. Like it makes her seem like a tramp.""

This is not the approach I'd take -

And the juxtaposition of "tramp" with "looks cheap" is heading in a certain direction as well, although it's not explicit so maybe she did just mean cheap in cost.

If you think "that coat/hoodie/ whatever looks really cheap" implies cheap in a sexual sense you should examine your own prejudices and use of language.

"Cheap" in a sexual sense is not a meaning that would ever enter my head, let alone use. I'm rather surprised someone, who I assume thinks of herself as a feminist, would give "cheap" any meaning other than "not expensive".

When I said I think she should suggest it was tacky earlier, I also meant lame and naff and try hard.

I hope you didn't think I was playing teenage top trumps earlier? Because honestly, I am in no position to judge anyone's teenager. I had to have two separate conversations with two different adults about the length of DD's skirt yesterday

She shops for herself, with her own money (i.e Christmas and birthday money she saves) and is in charge of her own wardrobe. There is very little about the way she dresses I approve of but I learned long ago to pick my battles and a fight with a fifteen-year old 'woke' pseudo-feminist about the length of her skirt or the substance (or lack thereof) of her top is not something I have the energy for.

DD did say earlier if your DD wants to be edgy she should try EMP. They have hoodies that are similar but without the porn.

As a parent of a teenager I would never judge another parent on what their teenager is wearing or how they behave when their parents are not around.

Bin it.
As a teacher if I saw a student that young wearing that top I’d be somewhat concerned about them (and what they’re exposed to at home). I’d probably have a quick chat to the safeguarding team about it. Totally inappropriate.

Maybe there are regional variations in what some words mean?

Around here, if a girl came out in some clothes that she saw as a bit too risque > like for example a playboy themed hoodie with a woman's open red mouth on the front

And she said
You can't wear that
It looks cheap
It makes you look like a tramp

It would have a very clear meaning that would not be to do with cost or living rough.

The accusations you have made to me are not on at all. The word "tramp" has definite connotations here when said to a woman and combined with the word "cheap" is not looking like something it would be likely for a feminist to say to her daughter!

You haven't mentioned the use of the word tramp at all - maybe it only means a person sleeping rough etc where you are (to be honest it's not a word you hear much about rough sleepers around here any more) but that doesn't make sense,

I feel like you're putting the boot in rather than conversing here and I don't really understand why.

" if a girl came out in some clothes that she saw as a bit too risque"

Her mum thought were too risque

Can't think of a better word
Suggestive?
You know what I mean.
There is a reason the mum doesn't want her wearing it. Multiple reasons possibly.
Saying it looks cheap and she looks like a tramp is stating one of them.
It's not language I would consider using or would even cross my mind hence my posting in slightly shocked reaction only to be told off for, not sure what!

In the context of this garment, “cheap” and “tramp” have very specific sexual connotations. It would not cross my mind that someone would mean “inexpensive, badly made and scruffy”

I wouldnt let her wear it

I didn't use the word tramp so have no comment on that other than it is not a word I would use in either of its meanings.

"Cheap" means , so far as I am concerned, in the context of clothes "obviously not expensive/badly made". If in your mind it has a pejorative and sexist meaning that is your problem not mine.

I think I might suggest she gets onto the Missguided website to see if she can get anything better in the sale by swapping the hoodie. If her dad still has the receipt

In the context of this garment, “cheap” has very specific sexual connotations

Not to me. I would describe that garment as cheap looking as it looks, even from the picture, badly made with that horrible stick on transfer on the back. "Cheap" is not a word I would ever think of , let alone use, in the context being suggested.

WTF

Marguerita

The poster said
""“It just looks so cheap”
“Did you get any comments about it yet?”

Act like you think it is unimaginative and lame. Like it makes her seem like a tramp.""

I said:
"Using patriarchal language about women would not be the way that I could even think about it!

It looks cheap (which means it makes you look cheap, I think? especailly when combined with the "You look like a tramp" thing - fucking hell!

Yes the best thing to do as a feminist responding to something like this is to adopt the language and attitudes of the men who made the images in the first place...! (Virgin / whore type stuff)."

You had a bit of to and fro with me and told me essentially that I have an issue as I see girls as sexual objects because I applied sexualised language to them.

In fact I SAID TO YOU:

"Marguerita -

The poster who suggested it used the word tramp, not me

""“It just looks so cheap”
“Did you get any comments about it yet?”

Act like you think it is unimaginative and lame. Like it makes her seem like a tramp.""

This is not the approach I'd take -

And the juxtaposition of "tramp" with "looks cheap" is heading in a certain direction as well, although it's not explicit so maybe she did just mean cheap in cost."

So did you not read any of the posts properly or what?

Are you going to apologise for saying that I need to "examine my prejudice and use of language"?

‘Cheap’ and ‘look like a tramp’ would have connotations to do with ‘suggestive’ dressing to me because that’s the way those words were used by people when I was growing up. I don’t think it makes someone sexist to interpret them in that way - it doesn’t mean they agree it’s a useful or acceptable way to describe or think about a teenager’s clothes.

It’s not just you, Nothing

It's really unsettling when someone makes accusations that you are an awful sexist bitch

I most certainly did not call you a bitch. "Bitch" (like "cheap" in the way you use it) is another word I never use. You might want to have a think about that word as well and its appropriateness.

I genuinely am shocked that you use "cheap" in that way and then to start throwing in that word as well.

""Cheap" means , so far as I am concerned, in the context of clothes "obviously not expensive/badly made". If in your mind it has a pejorative and sexist meaning that is your problem not mine."

Fuckign hell you're still at it?

What is the problem here?

Frogslegs said to tell the daughter it looked cheap and made her look like a tramp.
I said fuckign hell that's an awful thing to say don't say that.
You have spend the next however many hours having a go at me.

I want a better explanation than "oh I don't use the word tramp" - so what? You know what it means in the context of a young woman in an item of clothing her mother thinks is too sexualised.

You are telling ME off for saying that froglegs advice of telling her daughter it looked cheap and made her look like a tramp was shit sexist advice

You are calling ME sexist for pointing out that saying "that looks cheap, you look like a tramp" is borrowing the attitudes and language of the patriarchy which is NOT an approach that a feminist would take.

In summary, what;s teh probelm? Why are you so defensive of frogslegs post?

I am not going to apologise to anyone who thinks the word "bitch" is an acceptable word and who twisted what I wrote to try to claim I called her that.

Oh lol Marguerita come off it

You have called me sexist scum
You accuse me of sexualising young girls
Of using crude language about them
Of seeing them in terms of value

That is INCREDIBLY insulting

AAnd you're still at it

Why are you so protective of frogslegs why are you defending her post like this?

I was responding to what she said > to tell the daughter that looks cheap you look like a tramp
And you have been really putting the boot in

I don't understand

Why does it mean so much to you to defend Frogslegs ideas about what to say to the DD?