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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Martina Navratilova states the obvious

596 replies

Glinner · 19/12/2018 12:16

twitter.com/Martina/status/1075193284660785153

At first I was delighted to see thisat last a big name in women's sport is speaking up! but then I got angry all over again that this utterly obvious point has to be explained to an adult, in this case, a Guardian journalist. It boggles the mind.

OP posts:
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R0wantrees · 22/12/2018 15:07

USA 21/12/18
'Jury's award to transgender woman after rejection by football team is a Minnesota first
Player awarded $20,000 in pioneering business discrimination case.'
(extract)
"But when the team’s owner discovered that Ginther was transgender, the team yanked the welcome mat.

This week, a Dakota County jury found that the team and the league discriminated against Ginther because she is transgender, a violation of the Minnesota Human Rights Act. Ginther was awarded $10,000 for emotional distress and $10,000 in punitive damages.

The decision, her attorney said Friday evening, is significant because it is believed to be the first time a jury decided in favor of a transgender person in a business discrimination case in Minnesota.

“These are the discriminatory things that happen to transgender people every day,” said Nicholas May, Ginther’s attorney. “Even these small things can create significant mental health and esteem issues for transgender people.”

The jury decided that’s not right, May said.

“It wasn’t some law professor or some politician getting up and talking about transgender rights,” he said. “It’s a jury of regular folks who are saying, ‘This isn’t OK.’ That’s novel.”

Ginther, 46, transitioned to being a woman from 2014 through 2015, losing her marriage and many friends in the process. Wanting to rebuild her life in 2016, she searched for a supportive social group to join. She turned to the pages of Lavender, a Minnesota LGBT magazine, and found that the Vixen team seemed to be a welcoming organization. Another publication had a story about a transgender female, Sabreena Lachlainn, who played for the IWFL after helping rewrite the league’s eligibility policy to allow transgender women to play.

Ginther had never played football before. “I went to St. Thomas Academy, an all-boys school, and it was scary to be in a locker room with boys,” she said. “I was uncomfortable with my body.”

Taunted and bullied, she got involved with martial arts. “I felt empowered and became a second-degree black belt,” she said. “It was a big boost to my self-esteem. No one ever called me sissy after that.”

As a marathon runner who embraced the idea of pushing her body to its limits, she thought playing tackle football would do the same. At first the Vixen team seemed to embrace and encourage her, she said. But players acted differently toward her at the third tryout, she said. “Everyone was cold toward me.”

Apparently someone suspected that she was transgender and discovered one of Ginther’s social media accounts that documented her transition. A call Friday to the Vixen owner was not returned.

“I don’t know what could have given me away,” she said.

Sometimes insecurity gets the best of her, she said. “The stereotype is that women like to ask if a dress makes them look fat,” she said. “ ‘I ask, ‘Does this make me look like a boy?’ ”

After her transition, Ginther legally changed her name and the gender marker on her birth certificate. What she didn’t know, she said, was that the IWFL had changed its eligibility policy in 2012, requiring players to certify that they are and always have been legally and medically female.

“No trans person can say they are now and always have been,” said Ginther, who played in the Women’s Football Alliance (WFA) the last two seasons — the Minnesota Machine in 2017 and the Madison Blaze in 2018. The WFA league welcomes transgender athletes, she said."
www.startribune.com/jury-s-award-to-transgender-woman-rejected-by-football-team-is-a-minnesota-first/503365442/

This article demonstrates the issue of obfuscating language.

Ginther is male and the reasons to exclude a 47 yr old male from playing women's contact sport are for the safety, privacy and dignity of the females in the team. Not because 'transphobia'

US style lawsuits will spread. They have happened and are happening in Canada.

OrchidInTheSun · 22/12/2018 15:31

Apparently 'someone discovered Ginther was transgender because obviously up until that point, the whole team believed that Ginther was born female

Martina Navratilova states the obvious
R0wantrees · 22/12/2018 15:37

"But when the team’s owner discovered that Ginther was transgender male the team yanked the welcome mat."

Helmetbymidnight · 22/12/2018 16:21

Glad to see Giles coren and David baddiels tweet.

Giles coren thinks it’s just a handful of nutters- but if he digs deeper, he’ll learn.
I would think David baddiel is fully gc but he’s got enough on his hands fighting off nazis.

DoctorTwo · 22/12/2018 16:22

That RMcK is a right arsehole, the narcissism is palpable "don't you know who I am?" Massive lol :o

NothingOnTellyAgain · 22/12/2018 16:40

When I click on alison moyets tweet it's gone, has she deleted it? Or twitter maybe?

howard97A · 22/12/2018 16:45

'Jury's award to transgender woman after rejection by football team is a Minnesota first

This has spoilt my day.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 22/12/2018 16:48

In fact alison moyet's whole account has gone? Am I computering wrong?

Helmetbymidnight · 22/12/2018 16:49

She gave up twitter- I think today’s tweet was one-off. (She put ‘over and out’)

nauticant · 22/12/2018 16:51

It's not the tweet that's gone, it's Alison Moyet's account. (As far as I can tell.) I hope she's OK.

ErrolTheDragon · 22/12/2018 16:58

Popping her head above the parapet for just long enough for her support for Navratilova to be registered, and then out of twitter again before the inevitable trolling got too much sounds wise to me.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 22/12/2018 17:03

Thanks for the tweet alison > the number of retweets and likes says something doesn't it.

Shame fantastic women are being hounded out of public life (which is what lambasting women off social media amounts to).

Martina is also double awesome.

peepholepringle · 22/12/2018 17:04

Have I really had my comment deleted for calling McKinnon a prick? Is that not allowed on here anymore?

WrathofRancidKlopp · 22/12/2018 17:05

Thanks Orchid
www.mumsnet.com/uploads/talk/201812/large-861696-9f2e2b-20170308-christina-ginther-04.jpg
Photographs such as this, with pertinent captions seem to be the quickest way to deliver the message.

WrathofRancidKlopp · 22/12/2018 17:12

Not cheating
Oh noes.

hackmum · 22/12/2018 17:16

I didn’t know about Dawkins, Aspie. That’s sad. Agree about Simon Singh. Brian Cox too.

ErrolTheDragon · 22/12/2018 17:25

Brian Cox too

I noticed his wife's name on one of the twitter threads I've looked at today ... I think it was the Navratilova one. TBH I'm somewhat inclined to think that feminist and allies physicists need to focus their efforts on combatting old fashioned sexism (girls not doing physics, structural sexism in careers etc) and entering the fray re trans issues could be counterproductive.

silentcrow · 22/12/2018 17:26

I would think David baddiel is fully gc but he’s got enough on his hands fighting off nazis.

It's possible I'm being a little harsh on Baddiel - I was immensely pissed off by his comments on kidlit promotions, it showed him up enormously as someone living in a bubble of celeb privilege with no conception of how poorly-paid most non-celeb authors are (the industry sucks). OTOH the vast majority of children's authors have either stayed silent, disingenuously tested the waters then run away (looking at you, Pullman), or are openly retweeting Mermaids (not buying her books again, highly disappointed that a writer of mysteries has done no due diligence). I know of only one author who is openly GC and she is not a household name. So if Baddiel hopes to claw back any credibility within the industry he'll not follow up on his snark. Then again, he might be rich enough not to care Hmm. I rather hope that's the case and Webb's comments stiffen his spine.

AspieAndProud · 22/12/2018 17:33

I didn’t know about Dawkins, Aspie. That’s sad.

Also went through a divorce from Lalla Ward (amicable, apparently) not long after.

Brian Cox has dipped his toe in the water but pulled away sharply when he found the pool was full of piranhas.

It’s safer gazing at stars from the tops of live volcanoes.

Helmetbymidnight · 22/12/2018 17:36

Ah I wouldn’t say I agree with him on everything, but yeah 90 % of the time. 😂

I write - v low level obvs- and many of the authors I know are not gc and are all about ‘being kind.’ There’s going to be books out next year about gender fluidity that might get a lot of attention. An authors org I belong to, want to increase diversity- great- but they talked about ‘cis’ and trans too. It was a bit awkward.

AspieAndProud · 22/12/2018 17:40

Cox isn’t just a physicist. A lot of his tv work has been on natural history so he’s fine with commenting on things outside his specialist field. Plus his podcast The Infinite Monkey Cage has covered all kinds of topics and he has a wide range of guests. The only reason I can see for him not to comment is that he has been told not to.

R0wantrees · 22/12/2018 18:01

Brian Cox also came up with a proposal that all MPs should have to do a foundation course in a range of subjects before taking up office.
It came from his frustration with the gaps in knowledge of people with political power and responsibility.
Not sure of the program but will have been R4

see also:
2013
Brian Cox: MPs who ignore science should 'explain why'
Politicians who reject scientific advice should have to explain their actions - according to Professor Brian Cox.

The TV scientist believes that in order for the public to get clear facts on issues such as GM crops, drug policy and climate change, politicians must be more transparent.

Speaking with BBC Radio 5 live's Richard Bacon, he said: "If politicians go against the scientific advice - which they have a right do to - I want them to explain why. I don't want to make things up."

Professor Brian Cox's new three part series, Science Britannica'
www.bbc.com/news/av/science-environment-24149873/brian-cox-mps-who-ignore-science-should-explain-why

PinaGrigio · 22/12/2018 18:09

Aspie, I made the same point about Ben Goldacre et al on one of the Mermaids thread and I think someone else has emailed him. Be interesting to see if they get a response. Other 'woo-debunkers' who came to mind were David Colquhoun or Edvard Ernst, though they both tend to focus on complementary medicine.

I also found out today that I've been blocked on Twitter by R McKinnon. I have never engaged with McKinnon at all, so it's quite amusing & sad in equal measure that I've clearly made it on to some block list somehow. Ah well, I'll live.

Terfing · 22/12/2018 18:36

Brian Cox does sit on the fence though. He won't have debates about God, for example. It's obvious that he thinks god is bollocked, but he wants to keep his mainstream audience....

Iused2BanOptimist · 22/12/2018 18:37

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