Are women hated because we are weak?

[CrazyToast]

I'm sure there's been a thread about this before but I am wondering again- why do we hate women?

Straight men hate women.
Women often seem to hate women.
Transwomen often seem to hate women.
Gay men often often seem to hate women.

Why? What is it about us which is so detestable?

Is it because we are seen as weak due to femininity? Our reliance on men? That we have not contributed as much to society as men allegedly?

Is because women can have children and men can't?

Is it because straight men want sex with us so much and we control that?

*the ones who complain the loudest seem also to be the ones who are the least willing to do anything’

Right. So you interpreted one individual stating there’s nothing women can do to mean-

• a She is complaining

B she has done nothing and-never has. C The other women who ‘complain’ have also done nothing.

What is it you’d really like Scott? That we’d stop ‘complaining’ about male violence?

It's the massive over-generalisations I take issue with, as seemingly do a lot of other people. Women have babies because men pester them to? Really?

Immediately after that was written Scott people countered it. BTW my husband pestered me to have babies. It does happen.

The conversations on here involve a lot of people and a lot of views. It's a mistake to pick the few posts that you really don't like and decide that they are the prevailing viewpoint. No doubt I will get a bollocking for saying this.

It was me and I didn’t say what Scot interpreted it as. I appreciate my wording was slightly ambiguous but I clarified later. But don’t let that get in the way of over a day of self righteous huffing and puffing.

In many countries of the world, women have unwanted babies because they are forced to. Mere pestering would be considered a fucking holiday.

Married off at a young age to a man you didn't choose, denied access to contraception and regularly raped (and it is rape if you didn't choose the relationship) so you have as many babies as your society deems a good macho look for the man.

These women are probably not hated though, because they're doing what they're made to. It's when we start protesting and doing things a bit differently we start being hated for our uppity ways.

Actually, I think it's worse than hate. A saint in my religion once said that the opposite of love is not hate, it is mere use.

Many men can barely conceal their contempt for us when we challenge their privilege. Many more give no fucks at all as long as their purposes are served.

Many men don’t view women as the same species - merely a lesser one for their use and abuse - like a cow 🐄 used in factory farming - it’s just that she’s their personal pet name cow, to be disposed of once she has been drained and past her prime.

Many men can barely conceal their contempt for us when we challenge their privilege.

I think that some men, after having died by the millions in wars and always been the ones expected to go out and provide for the family, feel it a bit rich that feminists have tried to make it look like the injustice was on them.

And I do see where they're coming from in some aspects, but you don't hear many American men complaining that they still have to sign up for the draft to get the privileges that women get for nothing (state funded education etc).

And you also don't hear many men complaining about the fact that they usually miss a large part of their offsprings' early years. Men and women each have their own unique privileges and oppressions but men tend to just get on with it (man up) which likely explains why a fair number aren't very sympathetic.

God yes. Women just whine so much, never get on with it, never died or were raped in wars blah blah blah. Feminists should just shut up, because men, basically.

Oh, Cheggers. I was with you on not villifying men as a sex and on not making sweeping generalisations, but I can't agree with you on this one. I'm not going to get into a debate on who has it worse, however, because I see no point in doing so.

I fully support men in casting off the shackles of toxic masculinity and outdated gender stereotypes and hope they manage to do so. I see that there is inequality for men too, but vehemently disagree with the idea that they should just put up with it. We should strive for equality for all. Start a petition for better parental leave for dads, Cheg. I'll sign it. I'd hope many of us would. I'd also hope that you, and men like you, would support women in trying to overcome inequalities that affect us, too. Because, going back to the topic of the thread, I don't think men, in general, hate women. I think the sexes can support and help each other. Do you?

I do agree, Festive. I'm a bit tipsy and my previous post may have been a bit, shall we say, overly dramatic if I'm honest. I'm not saying that men have it worse, or that they should put up with the way things are.

I think that men have certainly infantilised women in the past (the weaker/fairer sex etc) but they've also exhibited an attitude of chivalry, which is dying out nowadays for better or worse - women and children on the lifeboats first etc.

When I see feminists claiming that women not being drafted or allowed to fight on the frontline is oppression, for example, I can't help but feel that this is one 'privilege' that no human being likely benefits from, despite the tales of war heroism etc.

But I do agree with Churchill that 'people sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.'

And I do see where they're coming from in some aspects, but you don't hear many American men complaining that they still have to sign up for the draft to get the privileges that women get for nothing (state funded education etc).

Of course we do. Jesus do you even google this stuff?

Scot you whine because you apparently do unpaid overtime just so the mothers you work with can leave to pick up their kids. So do you find it slightly out of the realms of possibility that you might have protested a bit like the average male could have done on being conscripted and sent to war?

The bit you miss is that it is powerful men that do this to other men (I mean political, social and financial power not literally armwrestling), not women. You don’t like it when men are seen as disposable cannon fodder or wage slaves. I don’t like it when women are seen as disposable slaves and treated as such. It’s not a competition and talking about one does not mean you have to talk about the other.

I agree with genderisaprison's comment - males are almost irrelevant. Nature made them expendable so they could sacrifice themselves to save the true core of the population - breeding females. We've now made a world of cyber warfare and democracy though so they have to fight hard to maintain the patriarchy and their relevance.

They COULD chill and become actually useful in society, and some do, but they are sissy boys, 'beta males' etc and the ones that believe alpha bullshit are still out there.

Ooookkk

What I would say is that my own experience and what I see around me is pretty much the opposite of what a lot of feminists seem to believe.

Men love women and vice versa. Most heterosexual men and women engage in fulfilling and significant and long lasting relationships with persons of the opposite sex. It's because they're the opposite sex.

Even the posters on here who agree that men hate women as a class, most heterosexual ones love and are loved by men, and probably that relationship with their husband is the most valued ? If it were the case that men as a class hated women as a class this would be the exception rather than the norm surely ? Why do women as a class love a class which hates us ?

I don't think men regard women as their equals, but I don't agree that they hate them.

'people sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.'

The only reason men go off to fight is because another bunch of testosterone-fuelled men somewhere (possibly their own fellow male citizens) started a war. Decided to use violence to further their own goals. As always. Since time immemorial.

It seems someone blames women for some men's historical rules about who fights in wars and who doesn't

Admittedly it's something few would enter willingly, and I for one am grateful to all those who fought for their country and against evil in whatever ways open to them (resistance included). But blaming women for elite men's decisions to withhold job equity for women is... curious.

The bit you miss is that it is powerful men that do this to other men (I mean political, social and financial power not literally armwrestling), not women. You don’t like it when men are seen as disposable cannon fodder or wage slaves. I don’t like it when women are seen as disposable slaves and treated as such. It’s not a competition and talking about one does not mean you have to talk about the other.

I agree with you on this, and I'm not for a second blaming women. What I'm saying is that men have also faced their fair share of adversity over history and it hasn't all been a patriarchal utopia.

Women have definitely been patronised and treated as interiors, but many of the things which only men were allowed to do weren't things one would necessarily want to do given a choice - fight in wars, work in dangerous jobs, etc.

The only reason men go off to fight is because another bunch of testosterone-fuelled men somewhere (possibly their own fellow male citizens) started a war. Decided to use violence to further their own goals. As always. Since time immemorial.

This is true, but as men are here to stay complaining about it is a bit like campaigning against bad weather.

Men are undoubtedly the root of most violence, but feminists usually look at men as a class and don't consider the men who are on their side in a manner of speaking, and that they sleep peacably at night solely because of the (mainly) men that protect them from other truly barbaric men.

There's a lot invested by some of men as protectors of women - it hasn't been the experience of many, many women

Do you rhink it would be better or worse for women if somebody like Kim Jong, Bin Laden, or Gaddafi ruled our nation?

^ And there we have it....the fallacy of relative privation

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3457140-fallacy-of-relative-privation

Is that when somebody says "but think of all the worse off women in Saudi Arabia"?

I'm just pointing out that our society (men and women) benefit hugely from the protection enforced by primarily men.

Feminists love to moan about men (sometimes with just cause) but they'd likely be screwed without them.