Are women hated because we are weak?

[CrazyToast]

I'm sure there's been a thread about this before but I am wondering again- why do we hate women?

Straight men hate women.
Women often seem to hate women.
Transwomen often seem to hate women.
Gay men often often seem to hate women.

Why? What is it about us which is so detestable?

Is it because we are seen as weak due to femininity? Our reliance on men? That we have not contributed as much to society as men allegedly?

Is because women can have children and men can't?

Is it because straight men want sex with us so much and we control that?

It's incredibly easy to persuade a not very bright 19 year old to take their clothes off for money

There was no need for the nasty "not very bright" comment.

I really don’t agree with your assertion that there are all these people out there hating women. I think most people like women

I agree. Comments like this
Women in their late thirties and early 40s are amongst the most despised women on Earth, especially Western women come across as bonkers and are no help at all except preaching loudly to the like- minded.

Women in their late thirties and early 40s are amongst the most despised women on Earth, especially Western women. Why? Just TRY and control us, that's why. And we're still fertile. We can put whatever baby we want into our uterus and they cannot stop us. And they hate us for it.

This.

And after that, 40s and 50s, when we cease to be noticed we often find our voices, and notice how the world works for those younger women still enduring oppression. It’s why so many of us come out fighting.

I think men can't take any responsibility- if they fail they blame us,

Eve in the garden led Adam into sin

Actually I think Eve was bloody clever and sensible and said knowing wrong from right sounds fabulous and better than staying ignorant and being controlled

But man couldn't handle the truth that the woman was pretty cool and helping them both so decided she was evil and leading wrong and so it must be punishment that the universe trusted them to carry on the human race

What we should do instead is stay controlled and ignorant in a nice little garden and look pretty

And that's been the battle ever since

Of course if any of it was actually true has not been an important detail in that myth

I don’t buy the “ there must be a biological basis” line, because my understanding is that hatred is not consistent across space and time.

Some societies hold women in very high regard. Although they tend to also have greater sex separated roles , which is typically a biological thing, women feed babies,men do the more physically demanding ( speed and strength) roles. Some societies have this sex specific roles without the assumption that the female roles are less worthy.

So perhaps it’s related to a fear of losing their role in life. Lack of confidence in their ability or fundamental worth. Perhaps it’s the type of society have where high status is possible , which builds in inequality , where even the slightest weakness, like taking time out to give birth means you can’t be the top of the heap

Is because women can have children and men can't?

Yes.

Men certainly don't hate us because we aren't as strong, physically. (And they lie about the contributions to society.)

Take a look at other people hated by the white men in power:

Black men aren't physically weaker than white men. Indeed, they and black women were (and to some extent still are) stereotyped as, if anything, physically stronger by the white men exploiting their labour. Black women were considered plenty strong enough to do hard physical work while white women of the upper class were locked away and forbidden from even riding a bike for fear it might damage their uterus - or that's what men claimed it was about.

So, it is that the white man despises others because they are not as clever as him?

We only need to look at the average playground where a boy is bullied because he works too hard for school. (They'll still want to copy his homework, though)

Man hates what he envies and what he wants to exploit.

Excuses will be found as to why those he wants to take advantage of do not deserve better, but they will be no more than excuses, and he will work hard to keep the illusion.

Women are prevented from leaving the house, then blamed for "not contributing to society", not allowed to get education, then called stupid, not allowed to do any sport whatsoever, then called weak.

Slaves were not allowed to attend schools or learn anything, in order to uphold the illusion that they were inherently stupid.

Trying to prove to men that we are strong, that we are clever, that we are worthy of being treated as human, is futile.

They know all this only too well.

White man lost interest in exploiting black people's labour when science meant that machines were cheaper, anyway.

Interest in exploiting women's reproduction, too, decreased when not so many workers were needed anymore.

We like to think slavery was abolished and women's rights were recognized because we worked so hard for it and because men became better people - but ultimately, there is no proof for that.

There is, however, plenty reason to suspect that most of societal change occurred because exploitation wasn't as profitable anymore.

So, yeah, sorry, there is no hope to make men see that we are human and then, as if some switch was flipped, they will treat us with respect.

They will treat us with respect as long as they don't lose too much by doing so.

Men were happy to let some women have jobs as long as most women were still forced to be sexually available to men in order to survive. (Men were especially happy to do this when there was a surplus of women after the war)

Now that lots of women have jobs, and many decide to not be sexually available to men, there's a backclash, and it is all about enforcing male access to women. Porn, Prostitution, taking away women's privacy in hospitals, shelters and prisons.

Some societies hold women in very high regard

Which societies would that be?

Certainly not any that have much of an influence on the world in general.

Perhaps the biological basis is not that men are inherently assholes, but the fact that it profits them so immensely to oppress and exploit women, the fact that exploiting women enables them to wage war against other societies and win, means that patriarchy dominates the world.

Interesting Hestia I've never looked at it from that angle.

I agree it's down to fertility.
Men have no idea if they are the father.
We don't need many men and then we only need 'good stock.'
Women on the other hand are invaluable.

Firstly, I think those who say that it is rare for men to hate women are in for a shock. It's not rare at all. They don't mind compliant women at all, but if a man clashes with a woman in power, so many of them have a real issue about it and their misogyny comes to the forefront. Look also at the men who have a problem with their female partner earning more than them and with female colleagues being promoted above them. Even so-called 'nice guys' hate it if they are outperformed by a woman.

Men are taught early on that they are superior to women, but then they start to see that it's not actually true at all. When women outperform men at school and at university, people assume it's feminism gone mad and that boys are being repressed by too many female rights. But for so many hundreds of years, it was just accepted that women weren't as clever or as good as men. Well, what if women just are better? Cleverer, more intuitive, more emotionally intelligent, more strategic? Obviously males would have an interest in trying to repress that, which is why patriarchy is necessary.

We don't need many men and then we only need 'good stock.'
Women on the other hand are invaluable.

I agree. In reality, if a few men's sperm impregnated many women, society, could sustain itself for quite a while. Wouldn't work the other way around.

I always thought it was about desire.

I thought some men desire women but hate that they desired women for it being a loss of control/a weakness in them. And women being ‘gate-keepers’ to sex. That’s just not fair!

When women get older, for this kind of fella, he no longer desires her, but holds her in contempt because he no longer desires her and she should be more desirable because what else is there?

Do men find women threatening, though? I'm not sure they do.

They always seem condescending of any women who could be a potential threat : as if a woman couldn't be as smart /better at a job, that we almost seem to skip the threat part as you would with another man and just move straight to that fact it wouldn't be possible at all with a woman.

If that makes sense

At the core, it is much like communism.

Workers need to control the means of production.

Women need to control the means of reproduction.

I don't think it is a coincidence that abortion is only embraced by those cultures where there is no danger of women aborting male fetuses.

In China and India, women either strongly prefer sons thanks to cultural brainwashing, or can be bullied into aborting female fetuses as they lack economic independence.

In Europe and the US, women are economically independent enough to make their own decisions, to leave a man who complains about wanting a son. Some women would even prefer to have daughters.

Now, I admittedly read more news from Europe and the US than from India and China, but it seems to me that there's much more of a panic about abortions here than in countries where abortion of female fetuses is a problem.

There are, to my knowledge, no groups of people in front of Indian and Chinese clinics, begging women to not abort their baby girl.

There's government bans on doctors telling people the sex of a fetus, and that's it. The population in general doesn't seem much emotionally affected.

When women outperform men at school and at university, people assume it's feminism gone mad and that boys are being repressed by too many female rights. But for so many hundreds of years, it was just accepted that women weren't as clever or as good as men. Well, what if women just are better? Cleverer, more intuitive, more emotionally intelligent, more strategic? Obviously males would have an interest in trying to repress that, which is why patriarchy is necessary.

^

This is all true.

But due to many, many factors men are consistently more successful in the workplace. Academics can only go so far.

Women need to start thinking like men - or at least like we want men to think!

Perhaps the biological basis is not that men are inherently assholes, but the fact that it profits them so immensely to oppress and exploit women, the fact that exploiting women enables them to wage war against other societies and win, means that patriarchy dominates the world.

^

I think in this sense you could basically say that it's an imbalance of power at play : it could be rich/poor, black/white, but in our case it's men/women.

Exploitation is tempting if its presented to you.

But due to many, many factors men are consistently more successful in the workplace. Academics can only go so far.

That's because men have much more control over the workplace. It's a man's world and they will fight to keep women in what they deem acceptable and subservient positions.
But a lot of it is also women buying into misogyny themselves. Every time I hear a woman say 'I'm very traditional at heart', I want to scream.

I am astounded at the very many women I meet who uphold and protect the status quo.

Recently a women told me that she and her extremely controlling husband were howling with laughter ,at me, because I am open about being a feminist.

I just wanted ask her who, exactly, she thinks the joke is on here?!

You're overcomplicating things.

It's simpy power.

In every society the strong have power over the weak.

No powerful group ever gave up power willingly.

I just wanted ask her who, exactly, she thinks the joke is on here?!

yeah I have heard that sort of shit before. About how if I make my feminist views clear, men won't find me attractive. Yeah, because all I realllly want in my life is a misogynist that I have to spend 24/7 with....

Most women who uphold the status quo and even hate other women is because of fear. Either fear of becoming a victim themselves (and the false sense of security of "if i toe the line and do the right things and say the right things it won't happen to me" , "i support them so they won't turn on me", " this happens to others ") or fear of the unknown, of going against everything they've ever known,what's been drummed into them,who they are.

Women need to start thinking like men - or at least like we want men to think!

The way we want men to think is very different from the way men actually think.

I think we need to crush patriarchy. Or, if we can't do that, make sure there's a 50% women quota everywhere.

Women won't be successful in male-dominated workplaces by behaving like men. Men don't like women who behave like men and won't promote them.

Women might be successful by first thinking of themselves - as men are wont to do - but acting just like men want them to act, until they get to the top.

And only then reveal that they are actually not the easily influenced strawwomen the men thought them to be.

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread, but I feel males of many species feel an innate need to control females, to give themselves a sense of power and agency. When an urge to prevail is frustrated, it comes out as hate.

@Swipetounlock I did wonder this watching nature programmes, where the males fight over sexual ownership of the females and territory.

I think it's all about status. Women are hated because they're low-status, because women have to be low-status in order for patriarchy to work, and so all our social systems have evolved to generate and enforce and reinforce the status differentials between men and women.

People feel okay directing hate at low-status people when they're seen as stepping out of their place. Low-status people are blamed for the behaviour of high-status people. Low-status people don't receive empathy to the extent that high-status people do. Low-status people are sometimes the beneficiaries of "noblesse oblige" or chivalry , but it's understood that this generosity can be withdrawn if they're not the deserving kind of poor person/women. Low status people are not listened to or taken seriously and will receive pushback if they try to assert a right to be heard.

I don't think this is some innate thing about the differences between men and women - status differentials affect every relationship, between individual people and between different classes of people. There's nothing to prevent a more egalitarian world from existing.

I do think that the precarious economy and social instability etc. means you get more people feeling like their own social status is under threat, and uppity women, or unlucky women, are an easy target to take it out on.

I wish more people paid attention to status as a variable affecting people's behaviour - class, sex, race, appearance etc all feed into it, but it's ultimately more than that, individual characteristics and personality and subcultural norms play a big part too.

The only people who really seem to talk much about it are "pick up artists" and their various spinoff subcultures (lots of incel types have a giant chip on their shoulder about being "low-status males") and improv comedy types. And the crappy kind of evolutionary psychologists. Maybe sociologists talk about it as well and I just don't know what jargon they're using?

okay that was a longer rant than I intended, thank you for listening to my TED talk.