Are women hated because we are weak?

[CrazyToast]

I'm sure there's been a thread about this before but I am wondering again- why do we hate women?

Straight men hate women.
Women often seem to hate women.
Transwomen often seem to hate women.
Gay men often often seem to hate women.

Why? What is it about us which is so detestable?

Is it because we are seen as weak due to femininity? Our reliance on men? That we have not contributed as much to society as men allegedly?

Is because women can have children and men can't?

Is it because straight men want sex with us so much and we control that?

Alas ! FWRLurker someone who agrees with me ! Beware you will be described as a "monogamy fetishist" by some posters

There's a theory that monogamy/polygamy is related to primate bollock size. www.tremr.com/Duck-Rabbit/primate-testicle-size-determines-sexual-norms-say-researchers.

And, rather depressingly, it also theorises that sexual strategies can be about avoiding infanticide by males.

Human males' testicles are apparently in the intermediate primate range. So yes we practise monogamy to an extent but I wonder if biologically we're really sort of 'serial monogamists'. We fall for people long enough to both bring up a baby to a decent age but then as so often is seen, the passion dies, and lots of relationships falter or are miserable. Or certainly involve less sex. I know it's more complex than that, but our rates of relationship breakdown are unlike a true 'lifetime partner' species.

Oh I didn't answer the OP. I think Klutzy had it on page one. Some men (but NAMALT obviously) hate women because they want to shag any woman any old time they like and feel they ought to be able to. They can't because women are a bit choosier than that due to the costs. So they hate women for frustrating their wants.

I kind of get it if I think about it like cake. I love cake. If someone put cake in front of me all day every day but didn't let me eat it when I thought I had a right to some especially when they kept showing it to me, I'd get really annoyed too. Cake-controlling bitches. Which I think it why women get burkas chucked over them in some countries. If we can't just have it, you're sure as hell not flaunting it. And if you do, we'll punish you.

BlindYeo

I think there are many problems with this theory that men (NAM) hate us because they find us sexually irresistible and constantly desire us.

Firstly, how does that explain the misogyny directed at older women ? It can't just be because an old woman doesn't want to have sex. Secondly it gives women (and men) the impression that the only reason a woman would be celibate is because she is picky. Thus the horrendous incel movement is seen not as an expression of male entitlement, but a natural result of the huge imbalance in sexual desire that exists.

I was a young woman once and I remember being quite obsessed with boys and various idols. I don't think even the most lusted after male would ever conclude "women only want one thing". So I'm sure that in situations where balance is clearly the other way around, i.e. more females desire the man than he desires, it doesn't lead to open expression of hostility. The difference is women just accept it to a degree whereas men are more likely to beleived in the whole idea that they can earn or win female desire.

The men who hate women do so not because women are weak but because THEY are . Women are the gatekeepers (like it or not ) to much of men's self esteem , in mothering , nurturing and supporting them . Sexual attraction and availability are major factors obviously , but I think that much of men's anger towards women is based on resentment that women have in their gift what men want - approval , nurturing , admiration , care .

When these are withheld or not available to a certain type of man they become very angry and resentful , and I definitely see this in some , often very femme or camp , gay men who openly despise women . . Narcissistic and infantile men become very angry when their wonderfulness and authority is not acknowledged or served .

I'm afraid I'm starting to see why some feminists get accused of man hating with these views. Men's self esteem relies on women ? Think about who men spend their time really trying to impress.

Men who hate women say we have "penis envy" and that we are jealous of their strength, their biology, their inventiveness, their achievements etc.

It seems some posters just flip this round and smugly profess some limited understanding of the hatred given that actually we are the ones with the ability to control men. Men's sexual desire for women has also historically been regarded as a weakness.

Well the evidence suggests that a lot of men don’t see women as fully human. I think the slave analogy is unfortunately very apt. From the fact that rape in marriage was only recognised as a crime in many of our lifetimes to the fact women are still paid less than men in the workplace to the number of women murdered by men every year that are supposed to have loved and cared for them, we can see that many men do not see women as worth the same as them, have the same human value as them. And this is just the uk - how many millions of women and girls live in societies where they are still bought and sold like cattle in 2018?

As men are the ones that hold the majority of powerful situations they are the only ones that can change it currently. Is there any solidarity for women from men as a class? Individuals, maybe, but I don’t know if there’s anything that would benefit solely women that the majority of men as a class would support. I’m amazed tbh we’ve managed to get as much as we have.

I think @goldenwonderwall has it.

I don't think the patriarchy hates us. Much as we don't hate the horses we use for labour or the dogs we keep as pets. We can find them useful, we often love them, but we don't generally consider them equals.

Obviously not all men view women this way, but of those that do some have benign or even good intentions and some enjoy being cruel. I think it has to do with the way they were raised.

Elon men may compete with each other ..though NAMActually ..but the role of women is a constant even if it's absent . The most common cry of dying men in battle or accident is 'mother' .

The most common cry of dying men in battle or accident is 'mother'

And on what evidence is this claim based on?

In my experience of caring for unwell, confused, and dying people, many of them ask for their mums and/or are worried about whether their mums know where they are. Dads are mentioned much less often (rarely, I would say). Obviously it’s nowhere near being a scientific study and I offer no explanation for this.

Obviously not all men view women this way

This is why I don't like class based analysis. I'm sure we all know of many many examples of the men hate women narrative.
If I think of the couples I know, lots of them are in loving, respectful relationships and a few aren't, and some have split becasue of it.
So the "men as a class hate women as a class" doesn't fit in such a huge number of cases that it's pointless saying it, and you have to add "not all men" or "some men" which a lot of people on here eye roll at.

You need to do class based analysis sometimes though - if everyone is simply an individual then any kind of unfairness is an individual unfairness and no trends or patterns can be ascertained as you’re looking at the pixels instead of the bigger picture.

A man has just got a couple of years for manslaughter for a horrific sexually based murder of a woman. This is the pixel that you can focus on (what a terrible man he is, that poor woman etc) but the bigger picture is he did unspeakable violence to a woman who was incapacitated with drugs and alcohol and he can walk away with his head and reputation held high after a couple of years in prison and start again because all our laws and systems are set up so that he can do that. Laws and systems set up that don’t see women as disposable lesser humans would not enable this.

My experience may be affected by having grown up in middle class South West England but I disagree that women are generally hated. A phrase I heard from my local vicar as a child has always stuck with me "Think me a monster, and that which I do will seem monstrous".

In Asia, Africa and the Middle East,
traditionally society has been matrileaneal rather than patrileaneal — with women having multiple male partners. Things only changed after the Europeans came in and mucked everything up with their backward beliefs.

Ok gronky you go say that to the families of the women who will be murdered by men who were supposed to love and care for them over Xmas and new year. It’s just thinking that repeated and consistent violence and control from men to women across the ages is monstrous that is the problem isn’t it? Not the violence and control.

Bet the vicar was a man too wasn’t he? Wonder why that was

GoldenWonderwall, that would be as callous and as divorced from my point as you saying to the same families that the mistake their deceased loved one made was allowing themselves to be in the company of a man.

Cherries

Evidence ? Why would women being monogamous as opposed to having "multiple" male partners (without access to safe and reliable contraception) be considered "backwards" ? Where is your evidence that the "Europeans" and not Islam is what set women's rights in the middle East backwards ? Assuming things were even better for your average woman in 500 AD which itself seems a remarkable claim

Also a bit at the claim a man with a jail sentence for sexual assault, battery or rape can simply "start again" with his head "held high". This is false. Usually any criminal conviction will torpedo your chances of securing good employment unless you are otherwise insulated.

elon that man currently has a conviction for manslaughter. Apparently Harriet Harman is trying to get it challenged as it’s obviously bullshit. Note that’s one of our few experienced women politicians trying to do something about it.

gronk well I wouldn’t do that would I because I don’t blame women for the violence that men in their lives carry out on them because they see it as their entitlement to do so. You seem to think that we make monsters by pointing out the violence? I’ve yet to meet a man who is a horrible arsehole simply because some people point out the violence of men as a class. I’m sure if this is all it took to change a mild mannered man into a hideous monster then you might have even encountered one in the south west.

You seem to think that we make monsters by pointing out the violence?

Not at all, you seem to have the concept backwards. A less charitable version that you might be familiar with is "never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity", though the two do not precisely align.

GoldenWonderwall

You may think he should have been convicted of a different crime, or that he should be in jail for longer. But a prison sentence has very serious consequences for someones life, they don't just way away when they get out and start with a clean slate.

As men are the ones that hold the majority of powerful situations they are the only ones that can change it currently.

I disagree with this.

There is much evidence demonstrating that men raised without a father have increased violent/criminal tendencies.

Of course, the absent father is partly to blame for this, but to suggest that women have no influence over how their sons turn out is ludicrous.