Are women hated because we are weak?

[CrazyToast]

I'm sure there's been a thread about this before but I am wondering again- why do we hate women?

Straight men hate women.
Women often seem to hate women.
Transwomen often seem to hate women.
Gay men often often seem to hate women.

Why? What is it about us which is so detestable?

Is it because we are seen as weak due to femininity? Our reliance on men? That we have not contributed as much to society as men allegedly?

Is because women can have children and men can't?

Is it because straight men want sex with us so much and we control that?

To be fair, 32% of uk men (according to one survey) consider themselves feminists, so quite a few normal men may wish to read a feminist forum.

www.statista.com/statistics/816438/respondents-who-agree-that-they-are-a-feminist-uk/

Seems to me that Scottycheg is making sensible arguments rather than trying to be a troll. If a viewpoint cannot stand scrutiny, that suggests to me that those holding that viewpoint need to critically evaluate it a bit.

I'm a feminist and do think that if sweeping statements about any section of society are to be made, they do need to be backed up by evidence. I agree with Scott on that point. It does make sense to me that women would be better at shift work, just because their bodies would be designed to wake with babies and suffer interrupted sleep. My DH does seem to suffer more than me in this. However, I'd need to find the evidence to back it up in order to make a claim about women's enhanced abilities at shift work. My personal experience in this doesn't count for much.

I do think that feminists who resort to trying to convince everyone that women are somehow better than men set the cause back somewhat. Equality will be much easier to achieve if more men are feminists too.

What on earth are you on about nut? In a couple of posts we’ve had I don’t believe in class analysis, followed by an example of class analysis when it suits and then a specific example of one woman who committed a violent non sexual crime with a male and that this is equivalent to the constant sexual and violent crime men carry out against women the world over. Why the fuck should anyone be obliged to engage with this shit to ‘prove’ their arguments are sound? My arguments are sound, I don’t need to try and attempt to plait the fog of someone who’s argument changes but who’s underlying point is women who aren’t grateful to men need to change, or else.

I'm really not sure about this theory men despise us because we are all sexual temptresses who they lust after. Look around you, how many real women could be described thus ?

I think men are disgusted by female sexuality in a way. Men are generally very very suspicious of other men, especially those outside their family or friendship group. They seem disgusted by the idea a woman would want to have sex with men.
I think this is where victim blaming can stem from. Some men seem genuinely repulsed by the thought of women having sex with other men, they are baffled by the idea women want to have sex with men and hence you get the seemingly unsympathetic "wtf was she doing with him any way?" Men see this as a weakness and fundamental foreigness I think as they obviously can't imagine themselves being alone and naked with another man, vulnerable.

Obviously not all men and the above is speculation/opinion.

I didn't say I agree with all his posts, but that I don't think it's unreasonable for (him?) to ask for sources and he doesn't seem to be a troll, so I disagree with those trying to suggest he shouldn't post on here.

I'm also trying to suggest that disparaging men as a sex probably isn't the most helpful thing to do.

You said he’s making sensible arguments.

I do think that feminists who resort to trying to convince everyone that women are somehow better than men set the cause back somewhat. Equality will be much easier to achieve if more men are feminists too.

Well said.

The elephant in the room though which is rarely discussed head on here is why fewer then 8% of women consider themselves feminists while overwhelmingly pretty much all women believe in equality. I have seen people on here offer ‘internalised misogyny‘ as reason for that 8% stat which on the face of things is pretty insulting to a lot of women who have suddenly had any agency to form their own opinions stripped from them. The fact is in recent years feminism has become a toxic brand (yes I know that’s a strong word) that not many people want identity with.

Feminism is for the liberation of women. I’m not surprised people shy away from that or demonise it. As I’ve said before, it’s amazing we have as many rights for women as we do because everyone and their mother seems to think we should shut up and be grateful for being allowed to exist.

Imagine a world where women truly had 50/50 representation and power. It’s not about a hierarchy where women replace men as top dog, it’s about having an equal say and an equal responsibility without having one hand tied behind your back all the time.

Imagine a world where women truly had 50/50 representation and power.

Power as we know is the ability to control and direct men. Men glorify leaders like Eisenhower and Churchill to a lesser extent Putin. Can we imagine a world in which a woman rather than Old Ike pats the men on the shoulder and looks them in the eye before they get on the landing craft ?

I think that the main advantage of having women in power would be the avoidance of such catastrophes. But that's a different sort of "power" than the one I think men traditionally consider.

I don’t understand why you’d come on a women's rights chat forum when you clearly at best hold a massive disdain for any woman anywhere who is not utterly subservient to the concept that men are just better than women and we should be grateful for that. It’s both fallacious and incredibly tiresome.

I don't understand why you'd come onto a women's forum and almost exclusively discuss topics about transsexual individuals when you're not trans yourself (well, I do actually but I'm making a point).

I'm interested in a lot of different social and political theories, and I frequent a diverse range of other forums. The reason I find myself drawn to comment so vociferously on here is because we regularly see completely unfounded and offensive statements about men which would not be tolerated were the situation reversed. Statements like 'women have children because men pester them and they give in' as we saw earlier on this thread. Or 'men hate women.'

Yes, the majority of violence is committed by men, but it's an extremely small proportion of men. And furthermore the prejudice is only directed against men - you'd never dare make the same statements against ethnic groups or socioeconomic groups who also exhibit increased levels of violence and criminal offending (I wonder why).

I just don't understand why the ones who complain the loudest seem also to be the ones who are the least willing to do anything about it

???

Helmet, go back and read the thread properly and all will become clear.

I have read the thread- what was it you were trying to say?

you'd never dare make the same statements against ethnic groups or socioeconomic groups who also exhibit increased levels of violence and criminal offending (I wonder why).

Who are also predominantly men.

Maybe power is the wrong word then? Maybe if you’ve somehow demonstrated that you are able to lead and people have their faith in you that you can do that and do it well and whatever the word is for those people, 50% are women. Altruistic rather than domineering. Obviously not all women in power would be like that for the hecklers at the back!

I have read the thread- what was it you were trying to say?

Is it not obvious?

Posters were complaining about men. Posters stated that 'we can't do anything about it, only men can.' I contested this and actually quoted the original post.

Hence, my comment about the people complaining the most being the ones least likely to try and do anything.

Scot give it a rest. I’ve never seen any evidence that you have any intention of listening to anything anyone’s got to say. You come on as the self appointed voice of reasonable men and use your homemade podium to whine about your office job or whatever. Stats ignored, evidence ignored, arguments flit all over the place to whatever fits your agenda. My agenda, and I only speak for me, is to clarify for me what the liberation of women looks like when done well and then apply that to my life and support others in doing so too. It’s nothing to do with man hating or any other bullshit you’ve convinced yourself feminism is.

transsexual individuals For this phrase alone Scott you are a transphobe, a 'te=*rf' and a bigot.

kill urself, you would make this planet better, we don't need sensitive people like you in this world, please, go fucking die

Nope..no hate at all.

@allfeministsneedtoburn

Reported. Honestly, why can we not have a sensible debate without this sort of nonsense?

Hence, my comment about the people complaining the most being the ones least likely to try and do anything.

Where’s your basis for that? Where on earth is your evidence that the women who discuss male violence haven’t done or don’t do anything about it?
It sounds like you want women to stop complaining about the 7 of us who will be killed by a partner or ex this month- but I’m sure you can’t possibly mean that.

I wonder what’allfeministsneedtoburn’ said? But I’m sure it was nice because men all love women and don’t want to stop them speaking.

School holidays have obviously started. Somehow I don't think the new generation of males is going to change anything for women.

School holidays have obviously started. Somehow I don't think the new generation of males is going to change anything for women.

What’s the point of them even trying if people like you write them off before they are even out of shorts!

Yes ladies, all feminists must burn was trying to be helpful - he just needs love and support.

Where’s your basis for that? Where on earth is your evidence that the women who discuss male violence haven’t done or don’t do anything about it?

Well, logic suggests that if an individual is staying that there's nothing women can do, then they're probably not doing anything. If they were, they would be disproving their own statement.