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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Apple's billion dollar investment directed at allowing men into women's bathrooms

564 replies

QuietContraryMary · 14/12/2018 08:13

<a class="break-all" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20181214081045/www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/2018/12/13/tech-firms-helped-knock-texas-bathroom-bill-apples-1b-campus-fatal-blow" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20181214081045/www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/2018/12/13/tech-firms-helped-knock-texas-bathroom-bill-apples-1b-campus-fatal-blow

" Big businesses helped kill the Texas bathroom bill two years ago, targeting it as discriminatory and unnecessary.

They said the legislation, which would have required Texans to use the restrooms that match their sex at birth, would have hampered efforts to woo new companies to the state and turned off convention planners and sports leagues looking at venues for events.

Now, some companies are doubling down on that commitment, citing diversity and inclusivity as factors in their decisions. Apple made this clear Thursday, when it announced a $1 billion investment in the capital city.

The bathroom bill, or something like it, may be back when state lawmakers meet in 2019. But opponents of these restroom regulations say the business community will again give them the ammunition they need to shoot down such divisive legislation.

OP posts:
KindOfAGeek · 14/12/2018 15:26

The actual history:

Ancient Rome had multiple seater toilets which no notion of privacy or sex segregation, unless you were rich. Then you paid to make sure you had privacy. When you could, you did.

The history of public toilets in the modern western world is sex segregated: Men only, women stay at home.

Sex segregated female only toilets were a means of allowing women the right to be outside. There is a persistent Internet meme that they were the result of as some weird idea that women were feeble and weak, the history shows they were originally established to allow women some access to the world, which men wanted to deny.

And still do, in India (most notably) and in other parts of the world.

But I guess if we're gonna be all modern and metro, we could go back to poor folks sharing while the rich pay for dignity.....

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 14/12/2018 15:30

male colleague is every bit as capable as a female colleague of comforting a sexually harassed woman and reporting

Errmmmmm

Okay

The thought that a sexually harassed woman might not want to talk to a man hasn't occurred to you I suppose

KindOfAGeek · 14/12/2018 15:32

And FYI: She got a nice pay day after the guy got canned for inappropriate behavior. She had a witness (me).

In a world of cubicles, there are no private corridors.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 14/12/2018 15:34

because I'm not gay and the idea of urinating in the company of another man is really weird to me.

What?

Whats it got to do with being gay??

How are you urinating together???

Oh god dont answer that

HestiaParthenos · 14/12/2018 15:46

But I guess if we're gonna be all modern and metro, we could go back to poor folks sharing while the rich pay for dignity.....

I think, personally, if I'm not allowed dignity, I may as well wear skirts and squat on the street whenever I have to pee.
As working class women used to do before women got sex segregated public toilets.

I don't use public toilets because I feel more comfortable peeing into a porcelain bowl than onto the earth. I use them for privacy.

Remove the privacy, and the only remaining difference is that the public toilet is more likely to be dirty than the nice public lawn.

That's not a threat, just a statement of facts.

FamousPJ · 14/12/2018 15:56

Point 2. Read the mermaids and all sorts guidance for schools. Read the UK safeguarding framework. Note the points of contradiction.

Given your other comments, I'm having a hard time believing you on this, but I will check it at some point sure.

What do you mean by ‘allowing men to transition has no impact.’? Of course it does unless SEX based rights are clarified. If a woman is anyone who feels like one, then ‘woman’ is meaningless and any laws that prevent disadvantage based on sex are moot

Logically, this doesn't hold. Someone transitioning to a woman and having women's laws apply to them isn't going to impact how those laws apply to you. A transwomen being protected by laws designed to protect women would not have any impact on how you are protected by those laws. You will have to give a specific example, because there appears to be no legal basis for what you're trying to argue here.

It’s not that women have rights that men don’t - of course it isn’t hmm it’s about discriminating against women.

Again, laws that protect women from discrimination won't apply to you any less just because those laws would also protect a transwoman.

Point four: you’re not concerned that a convicted rapist and child abuser with previous for using ‘I’m a woman’ to get into a locked women’s psych ward and rape a woman’ was put in a women’s jail? A jail that had a mum and baby unit? Because ‘women do worse?’ Okidoki.*

Ok, that was a poor point on my end, but there are ways to stop transwomen who are convicted sex offenders from harming female prisoners, rather than force them into men's prisons where they could be raped or seriously harmed.

5: I didnt suggest transgirls are a danger. You did.

Yes you did. You said that transgirls showering with biological girls puts their safety at risk.

Im saying that Male predators (I’m not even talking about people identifying as the opposite sex, I’m talking about men who will use this loophole) can now access girls where they couldnt before. And they will.

As I already explained, having a law to prevent male sex offenders from entering women's toilets or changing rooms won't change anything. A sex offender is already breaking the law; having another law saying "you can't go in that room" isn't going to deter them.

Do you honestly think a male sex offender looks at a women's changing room and thinks "I really want to carry out a crime of sexual assault right now... But there's a law saying I can't go into women's changing rooms, so I guess I'm just going to turn around and go home now because I'm a law-abiding citizen"? Yeah, I didn't think so either.

If you are concerned about sexual assaults in changing rooms and toilets, better surveillance should be your concern. Not transwomen.

6. Of you’d like to discuss the impacts of puberty blockers and cross sex hormones I’m happy to do so. It’s fairly horrific.
An academic from Bristol uni among others is pushing for children to have legally recognised genders and to be legally recognised in their gender earlier. Mermaids et al say children are competent from age five. They are not. And doing so will have consequences for safeguarding

I trust that healthcare professionals who deal with these children have the best understanding of what's right for them, moreso than you or I. Saying that theyre doing this because of a weird men's sexual conspiracy is the stuff of pure fantasy.

Ahhh... and if it’s Male violence transwomen fear, then its men who need to shape up. Why are men not told to be less violent?

They are being told to be less violent. Violence against transwomen has legal repercussions. But a small minority of men will be violent no matter what they're told (even in a prison) and it's difficult to keep tabs on them 100% of the time (yes, even in a prison), so the best solution is to remove the transwoman from harm.

Suggesting that transwomen should have to stay in a man's prison, and that we should just tell prisoners to be less violent, is an outrageous suggestion. Should we tell female victims of domestic abuse to stay with their husbands, and just tell the husband to be less violent? Does it not make more sense to remove a domestic abuse victim from the crime and find a safer place for her instead?

Why is making toilets mixed sex making anyone safer? It isn’t. Using your argument a man could just follow a transwoman on anyway.

It doesn't, but nor is it more dangerous. Personally though, I don't quite understand the motivation behind unisex toilets; but in terms of male Vs female toilets, I think it's silly to try to force transwomen, who look completely female, to use the men's toilets.

AspieAndProud · 14/12/2018 16:01

That’s a very long way of saying, ‘Pay attention to me while I’m being creepy.’

Bowlofbabelfish · 14/12/2018 16:05

Do you think humans can change sex?

AspieAndProud · 14/12/2018 16:08

You should have lead with ‘I don't quite understand the motivation behind unisex toilets’ and saved us the effort of reading the rest.

Come back when you understand.

Bubonicpanic · 14/12/2018 16:14

Who is this donkey?

Bubonicpanic · 14/12/2018 16:16

This is giving me a massive laugh for a Friday afternoon. I might crack open the wine and watch.

BitterAndOnlySlightlyTwisted · 14/12/2018 16:20

" transwomen, who look completely female, to use the men's toilets."

Oh, they look completely female do they? No, they bloody don't. You might be fooled but few of us women would be.

Still, let one kind of man into women's private spaces and you're letting them all in. Take my word for it, we do not want that. And will fight to prevent it. You might not understand and that's OK because you don't have to. Just fuck off out of our private spaces!

FloralBunting · 14/12/2018 16:34
CottonTailRabbit · 14/12/2018 16:36

Ok, that was a poor point on my end, but there are ways to stop transwomen who are convicted sex offenders from harming female prisoners, rather than force them into men's prisons where they could be raped or seriously harmed.

Well, if there are ways to keep people safe from predatory men, why not keep the rapist transwoman in the men's prison and apply those protections there? That way the women are definitely safe from the penis-haver. Why not do that?

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 14/12/2018 16:39

One of the benefits of this format, in contrast to face-to-face discussion, is that it allows you to skip right over any tediously long mansplanation to the posts that you think might be interesting and relevant Smile

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 14/12/2018 16:43

I just scroll past assholes.

FloralBunting · 14/12/2018 16:43

It is always so fascinating to see causes like eradicating female spaces poor friendless transwomen championed by big powerful tech companies.

TeaEnjoyingRadiantFeminist · 14/12/2018 16:51

. How many ancient religious temples have separate areas for men and women? I seriously doubt that women "fought" for those spaces within those religious groups.

Yes, because those spaces were created for the protection women and not at all to prevent women from accessing the religion or education, or from being a 'distraction' to the men. Obviously. Because all segregation is the same. Obviously. Hmm

Do you often lecture women on womanhood? Evidently you must understand it more than we do. It must be because of our pink, glittery ladybrains...

Bubonicpanic · 14/12/2018 16:55

This thread is reminding me of the recent Christmas party at a tech company I went to. A couple of years ago now.

The guys drank like fish all afternoon and by five pm the Cheif Legal Officer was on the dance floor behind one of the very drunk young sales assistants clutching her by the groin and grinding his cock into her bottom. I went home. After I left strippers appeared on a podium and rubbed neon paint all over each other.

DodoPatrol · 14/12/2018 17:04

Oh look.

It's Mr 'Be safe, have sex in public' again.

Nope.

Back to your bedroom, ducky.

CottonTailRabbit · 14/12/2018 17:05

Women stop your silly ideas about finding ways to make it harder for predatory men to get at you. They'll get you anyway.

Other top tips include: don't bother closing your front door, burglars will burgle no matter what and anyway burglary is illegal and neighbourhood watch exists.

Remember too that some other women are dangerous, so are some dogs and some spiders and you share spaces with women, dogs and spiders therefore you have no place making it harder for predatory men to get at you.

Will everyone please stop warning their teenage girls to be careful where they go, who they go with etc. We are modern now so men don't prey on women. OK?

BelindasRedPlasticHandcuffs · 14/12/2018 17:06

What do you mean by ‘allowing men to transition has no impact.’? Of course it does unless SEX based rights are clarified. If a woman is anyone who feels like one, then ‘woman’ is meaningless and any laws that prevent disadvantage based on sex are moot

Logically, this doesn't hold. Someone transitioning to a woman and having women's laws apply to them isn't going to impact how those laws apply to you. A transwomen being protected by laws designed to protect women would not have any impact on how you are protected by those laws. You will have to give a specific example, because there appears to be no legal basis for what you're trying to argue here.

Sigh. Laws for women protect me based on my sex. No male person is permitted to come into my space, only other females.

If a transwoman enters that space, that space is no longer a female only space because that individual is male regardless of their gender identity.

By virtue of that transwoman/male entering the female space in order to take advantage of the legal protections for women and entitlement to male-free spaces that now apply to them as 'women' under self-ID, they are eradicating the male-free space they are seeking to rely on. So there is no more female-only space to enjoy.

The result is that no one is protected. Not me, and not them. Their very presence renders the concept of male-free space entirely void.

The law isn't saying that they're going to subtract right X from me and hand it to someone else. However, the only outcome of self-ID being enforced in practice is to render sex-based laws entirely moot and unenforceable which, by extension, removes female rights from females.

It really isn't that complicated, and I suspect you're fully aware of that.

UpstartCrow · 14/12/2018 17:16

I cant get past the 'I'm not gay' comment.

If men had to manage periods or miscarriages, they'd have showers and washing machines in the gents.

Materialist · 14/12/2018 17:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FamousPJ · 14/12/2018 17:27

If men had to manage periods or miscarriages, they'd have showers and washing machines in the gents.

Unlikely, given that men's facilities are typically more poorly equipped. For example, at my school, the boys showers were completely open. The girls had curtains in their changing room.

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