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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Open Letter to The IOC regarding transwoman Tiffany Abreu

208 replies

happydappy2 · 13/12/2018 13:14

Tiffany was born male and competed as a man, then transitioned to a woman and is now taking the place of a woman on the womans volleyball team. (& is doing very well-they are after all 6 foot 3") A very courageous lady Ana Paula Henkel has written an open letter to the IOC outlining her concerns prior to the 2020 Olympics in Tokyo.
A brave lady indeed. Needs to be talked about though.

OP posts:
merrymouse · 18/12/2018 12:01

Your use of the holocaust undermines the currency of language.

No it doesn't. As I very clearly said I am comparing them to people who try to generalise the effect of the holocaust to minimise it's effect on Jewish people, e.g. Trump when he talked about the Holocaust without mentioning Jews.

Trump also claims to be mortally offended by footballers kneeling specifically to avoid dealing with why they are kneeling.

I am very, very comfortable comparing TRAs to Trump.

Minimise the impact of discrimination felt by a particular group by pretending that they don't exist. Call them bigots and claim to be the victim yourself when they point out examples of discrimination.

Being a key board holocaust denier is not the same as sending people to concentration camps, but it is very similar to denying the existence of biological sex.

merrymouse · 18/12/2018 12:19

Dadjoke, in retrospect I can see that comparing the holocaust and slavery to sport might seem a little jarring. I should have written:

"Councils, Children in Need and Comic Relief are currently funding groups who go into schools and tell children that women's sport shouldn't exist, because biological women don't exist ".

DadJoke · 18/12/2018 13:00

merrymouse I would say they are undermining women’s sports by denying the reality of quantifiable physical differences in biology between male-born and female-born people, and conflating sex with gender.

merrymouse · 18/12/2018 13:33

I would say they are undermining women’s sports by denying the reality of quantifiable physical differences in biology between male-born and female-born people, and conflating sex with gender.

Which is the equivalent of claiming that a white person wearing 'black face' is black while pretending that slavery wasn't too bad.

It's just that some how (maybe because sexism is the water we swim in? maybe because it doesn't disadvantage men so obviously? maybe because left wing people are just as bigoted as everyone else ?) that is the 'progressive' view point.

This isn't a sitting on the fence issue. It's one thing to believe that some people suffer from gender dysphoria and that people shouldn't suffer discrimination because of how they present themselves, quite another to believe that trans women actually are women.

DadJoke · 18/12/2018 15:01

Which is the equivalent of claiming that a white person wearing 'black face' is black while pretending that slavery wasn't too bad.
Sorry, I am not following your line of reasoning at all. What did I say that implied that?

CroneXX · 18/12/2018 15:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

merrymouse · 18/12/2018 18:12

DadJoke denying the reality of quantifiable physical differences in biology between male-born and female-born people, and conflating sex with gender is the equivalent of claiming that a white person wearing 'black face' is black while pretending that slavery wasn't too bad.

Ereshkigal · 18/12/2018 18:36

dadjoke

I wrote what your letter was basically going to be saying in response to you presuming to write one for MN. Before you added your draft text which didn't really add anything It would be nice if you could acknowledge my gently mocking version and either grasp the point or refute it.

Ereshkigal · 18/12/2018 19:45

Dear IOC

TWAW. Obvs. But I don't think they should compete in the women's category because for some unknown reason they tend to be stronger and bigger than most other women.

Yours

DadJoke

Just to recap.

DadJoke · 19/12/2018 11:36

Ereshkigal I was intending to write the letter I suggested from me, it's up thread. It emphasises the biological differences between people born male and people born female. It does not deny the reality of sex differences - in fact quite the opposite. It just doesn't say "TWAM."

The other letter I wrote I was a précis of the letter mumsnet might send, and I hoped to make it obvious that, true or not, it would fall on deaf ears.

Your version of my letter implies I don't think there is a difference between people born male and people born female, when in fact that was the whole point of it.

I absolutely support any efforts to stop the damage to women's sports, and I urge anyone to write any letter they like in the hope of making a change. I was suggesting a course which I believe is more likely to affect change, and you can take it or leave it.

AngryAttackKittens · 19/12/2018 11:38

I think "leave it" is the collective consensus.

DadJoke · 19/12/2018 11:53

AngryAttackKittens fair enough.

I'm still hoping someone might have ideas as to where best to send such a letter (whatever the approach). Any ideas?

andyoldlabour · 19/12/2018 12:34

@AngryAttackKittens

British Cycling, British Athletes Commission

www.britishathletes.org/

Football Association

www.thefa.com/

British Cycling refused to discuss the matter with me.Angry

InfiniteSheldon · 20/12/2018 13:15

Another thread lost to misogyny and mansplaining

VickyEadie · 20/12/2018 13:23

It's always interesting when men tip up on here and mansplain and/or dominate threads.

There's one that appears regularly to tell us how hard done by men are.

Ereshkigal · 20/12/2018 13:36

Your version of my letter implies I don't think there is a difference between people born male and people born female, when in fact that was the whole point of it.

The point that I illustrated with my version is that your reasoning makes no sense. MTF trans people are male and an adult male is a man. By saying that there are sex differences you are saying that they aren't women. Most of the world doesn't subscribe to your pomo separation of male from "man". What about this is proving so difficult to grasp?

Ereshkigal · 20/12/2018 13:38

If they actually were women there would be no basis for excluding a particular group of women for physical reasons. However, they aren't women. So there is. That is the basis.

andyoldlabour · 20/12/2018 14:29

@InfiniteSheldon,
I am not sure if the mysogyny and mansplaining comments were aimed at me because I am a bloke, but I can only say that I have been supplying information that I feel would be helpful.
I am genuinely concerned by this situation, because I think that it has the potential to destroy women's sport.
Why have no notable sportswomen come forward to comment on this? It seems as though Martina no longer wishes to be involved in this debate, so I can only surmise that it is because she is no longer competing and it no longer affects her.

DadJoke · 20/12/2018 15:46

Ereshkigal

Stop me where my reasoning doesn't make sense:

Some people are born male, others born female.
People born male have an advantage in many sports over people born female.
Unless we want to effectively exclude people born female from the top levels of sport, we need to segregate sport by sex, or they will be dominated by transwomen.
Therefore transwomen should be excluded from the women's sports category.

Ereshkigal · 20/12/2018 16:04

Dadjoke, I'll repost my reply which makes it perfectly clear why your reasoning doesn't make sense:

If they actually were women there would be no basis for excluding a particular group of women for physical reasons. However, they aren't women. So there is. That is the basis.

DadJoke · 20/12/2018 16:33

Erishkigal I read your original reply. I am not saying transwomen are women, so you are not paraphrasing my argument, just attacking a strawman. Show me where I am saying that transwomen are women, or even implying it.

Ereshkigal · 20/12/2018 17:05

You have said that you regard sex and gender differently, and that there is a category error.

As you can see from other people's posts, it's not just me who thinks the distinction is spurious.

Ereshkigal · 20/12/2018 17:17

IF THEY ACTUALLY WERE WOMEN THERE WOULD BE NO BASIS WHATSOEVER FOR EXCLUDING THEM FROM WOMEN'S SPORTING COMPETITIONS. THERE IS A BASIS ONLY BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT.

Do caps help you grasp the point?

DadJoke · 20/12/2018 17:47

Ereshkigal Can you show me where I have referred to gender in my letter? I haven't. I've said sport should be segregated by sex because otherwise transwomen will take over women's sports. Do you disagree?

Really, if you could address what I actually said rather than these strawmen you keep building, we might get somewhere. Look at the argument I presented in my letter and tell me at what point you disagree.

I think you just won't be happy unless I add PS TWAW!

Of course I regard sex and gender differently. Is there anyone here who doesn't? They are different things.

DadJoke · 20/12/2018 17:48

Sorry TWAM