Open Letter to The IOC regarding transwoman Tiffany Abreu

[happydappy2]

Tiffany was born male and competed as a man, then transitioned to a woman and is now taking the place of a woman on the womans volleyball team. (& is doing very well-they are after all 6 foot 3") A very courageous lady Ana Paula Henkel has written an open letter to the IOC outlining her concerns prior to the 2020 Olympics in Tokyo.
A brave lady indeed. Needs to be talked about though.

"Plenty of sane, educated people (way more than there are transgender people) have a different definition of woman."

I'd restate that as "plenty of sane, educated people are currently lying through their teeth about what a woman is, because they've been convinced that it's the right thing to do".

What most people here are suggesting is that we explain to them why it is not in fact the right thing to do.

I see DadJoke hasn't been able to reply to my question:

I'm a woman - please tell me what a transwoman has in common with me that they don't have in common with men.

VickyEadie why are you asking me? I can either give what I believe the other side’s answer is and be (correctly) accused of thread derailing and mansplaining or keep quiet and be accused of cowardice. It’s all about gender identity. If you don’t think that’s a thing (which you won’t) you will never accept any trans arguments. If I even state the argument I will need to use the other side’s language and that you will find insulting.

What do you think the most effective way to support sex segregation in sport? Do you object to the wording of my letter?

why are you asking me? I can either give what I believe the other side’s answer is and be (correctly) accused of thread derailing and mansplaining or keep quiet and be accused of cowardice. It’s all about gender identity. If you don’t think that’s a thing (which you won’t) you will never accept any trans arguments.

I ask because you clearly - from your previous comments that we shouldn't challenge the notion that TWAW - think that they are. I wondered why you thought that and thought you must have some notion of something a TW has in common with me.

"Gender identity" being all you can come up with, what's that, then? How does mine manifest itself and how is it like a transwoman's?

What do you think the most effective way to support sex segregation in sport?

Ensuring that men cannot compete with women no matter what they've done to their bodies or how they make themselves look.

VickyEadie I have very carefully not said one way or another whether I think TWAW. You can read psychology and medical journals yourself or pick up references from the wiki article about gender identity. The fact is, I don’t think saying TWAM helps in this context is the issue. That was my intention with the draft letter. Do you disagree with it?

“Ensuring that men cannot compete with women no matter what they've done to their bodies or how they make themselves look.“

I mean practically? Who do we lobby?

Your approach is:
Persuade the entire world that TWAM. Gender identity is enshrined in law, so we’d need to amend the equality act and the GRA. Once everyone is on board with that idea you can use your TWAM argument on the IOC. It sounds pretty unlikely.

My suggested is to emphasise the reality of sex differences, and the importance of sex segregation where it matters. That’s a teeny bit more likely to work than overturning decades of national and international law, the stated positions of most medical, sports and equality organisations.

I read some of DadJoke’s initial comments but wasn’t able to reply. I haven’t been able to read the full thread but I just wanted to say that I think I understand the sentiment behind what he is saying. I want to influence the law. I don’t want to still be talking about this on mumsnet FWR in a couple of years while things are getting worse. I think having a very blunt and uncaring message will not win over people in power.

It is true that most of the population don’t believe TWAW, but these are not the people making the decisions. Many people are too apathetic to make their views known to their councillors and MPs, or to lobby companies and other organisations, or they are too busy trying to cope with life. The people in power are careful not to get that stain (as they see it) of ‘bigot’ as that will make them an outcast in the corridors of power and the trendy places that they like to be welcome.

If you try to force people to say TWANW publicly, they will not, whatever they believe. There are ways of conveying the message honestly without being too stark about it. FairPlay for women often talk about male-bodied. I prefer biological male/female. I don’t believe TWAW but they are quite fixated on the label and so when trying to influence people new to the debate I will not go down the path that means they will brand me a bigot and not listen to anything further I have to say. Instead I focus on underlying biology and physiology.

Where is gender identity in law? Gender reassignment is protected in law, and it's assumed that gender identity is a factor in proceeding with gender reassignment. But it's implied rather than stated.

[]www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination]]

“The Equality Act 2010 says that you must not be discriminated against because you are transsexual, when your gender identity is different from the gender assigned to you when you were born. For example:

a person who was born female decides to spend the rest of his life as a man
In the Equality Act it is known as gender reassignment. All transsexual people share the common characteristic of gender reassignment.

To be protected from gender reassignment discrimination, you do not need to have undergone any specific treatment or surgery to change from your birth sex to your preferred gender. This is because changing your physiological or other gender attributes is a personal process rather than a medical one.”

fairplayforwomen.com/equality-act-2010_womens-rights/ also covers it.

That's guidance, not legislation. The Equality Act says nothing about gender identity, only about gender reassignment. You could undertake gender reassignment for shits and giggles if you want, whatever your gender identity is, it would still give you legal protection under the Equality Act.

materialist the EHCR makes the point that the language is outdated, but that term does not invalidate the second para I quoted. That and the GRA act are a complete mess; there is a compelling argument that trans people with a GRC are their actual sex on their birth certificate, which would mean they are not trans under the law. A court case or better definitions of sex and gender identity in law are urgently required.

Why would people with a GRC not be protected under "gender reassignment"? It has nothing to do with "sex". So they would be protected under their legal "gender" on the GRC under sex (wrongly imo) and also under gender reassignment.

See Alex Sharpe’s opinion (and other interesting legal views) here www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/19/gender-recognition-act-reforms-six-legal-views-transgender-debate

It is transwoman / transwomen, not trans woman / trans women.
The difference is important DadJoke

I think you misunderstand Sharpe's argument, DadJoke.

@DadJoke,

"a person who was born female decides to spend the rest of his life as a man"

How strange that you chose that, when we know that the vast majority of transgender people are men who decide to identify as women. I think that the reason for your presence on this thread is very obvious.

To be fair that's the EHRC's wording. Agree it's very telling. As is the government guidance on accommodation of trans people in the workplace (written largely by Gendered intelligence) where they mention using opposite sex single sex spaces, in which they use an FTM to illustrate. Surprise.

Andraya Yearwood has to run harder to compete against women.

twitter.com/bleacherreport/status/1074759823776980994?s=21

This should be a link to the article.

bleacherreport.com/articles/2810857-andraya-yearwood-knows-she-has-the-right-to-compete

The GRA 2004 specifically allows that:

(1)A body responsible for regulating the participation of persons as competitors in an event or events involving a gender-affected sport may, if subsection (2) is satisfied, prohibit or restrict the participation as competitors in the event or events of persons whose gender has become the acquired gender under this Act.
(2)This subsection is satisfied if the prohibition or restriction is necessary to secure—
(a)fair competition, or
(b)the safety of competitors,

I will not go down the path that means they will brand me a bigot and not listen to anything further I have to say. Instead I focus on underlying biology and physiology.

If somebody was trying to spread the idea in schools that the holocaust didn't really affect Jewish people or that slavery wasn't really a big deal, would you worry about whether those people thought you were a bigot?

Councils, Children in Need and Comic Relief are currently funding groups who go into schools and tell children that women's sport shouldn't exist.

I know we are all so used to discrimination that it's sometimes difficult to recognise, but let's not forget that it's less than 100 years since women could vote on equal terms with men (in the UK - a lot less in many parts of Europe), and less than 50 years since the introduction of equalities legislation.

I'm all for sticking to the facts, but I'm afraid that sometimes people are just going to call you a bigot because they themselves are a bigot. (See 'All lives matter' in the US).

@Iused2BanOptimist,

Thanks for that link to the Bleacherreport. It was still pretty much the same old drivel, feel sorry for the person who cannot understand why the hateful people want to stop them running - except that to the majority it is blindingly obvious.
There is another athlete at the same school called Terry Miller who is also trans.

abcnews.go.com/GMA/News/transgender-athletes-speak-parents-petition-change-policy-compete/story?id=56071191

andyoldlabour I was asked a question and I cut and pasted the relevant section from the EHRC website. What in earth do you think my motivation is? Did you agree with my letter template?

Ereshkigal they have two examples, one transman and one transwoman. Things are bad enough without inventing conspiracy theories.

merrymouse No, TRAs are not Nazis, and this is not the holocaust. Your use of the holocaust undermines the currency of language. Not only that, it’s a poor analogy. It’s like all the overblown threats of child suicide the TRAs use.

What, specifically, do you object to in the sample letter? Do you think it would be better if I added “PS TWAM”?