Open Letter to The IOC regarding transwoman Tiffany Abreu

[happydappy2]

Tiffany was born male and competed as a man, then transitioned to a woman and is now taking the place of a woman on the womans volleyball team. (& is doing very well-they are after all 6 foot 3") A very courageous lady Ana Paula Henkel has written an open letter to the IOC outlining her concerns prior to the 2020 Olympics in Tokyo.
A brave lady indeed. Needs to be talked about though.

On a basic, biological level, regardless of any other hormones, male born people will be faster of female born people because of the shape of the hips. I thing can change that. Even if they are on cross sex hormones from puberty they still have a physiological advantage.

Faster than

The argument does not have to accept that TWAM, merely that trans women are advantaged because of their physiognomy. Does anyone know who we should write to?

DadJoke, I appreciate that you probably think you've found a clever way to move the discussion forward, and I am pleased that you're trying.

The problem is, you have things a bit backwards.

Once upon a time, we were happy to discuss the semantics and find a middle ground, most of us started in that place (so assuming you have a previously unthought of solution comes off as mansplainy).
We got nasty abuse for our trouble.

We are holding the line on twam because we have learned the hard way that any polite concession invites a big fucking bulldozer. They didn't just steal the word woman, they went on to steal female and any word that we might dare to use to describe our material biological female reality.

We didn't destroy the goodwill in having a nuanced debate. Blame the #nodebate crew who prefer slurs and masks and baseball bats.

Unless and until the TRAs can give me an alternative working definition of woman, that holds up legally wrt acknowledging and mitigating the female biological disadvantages/oppression, then your attempts to smooth things over with semantic games won't work. If we pick a new noun, they'll steal it. If we try to compromise, they accuse you of bigotry. Nothing less than repeated total capitulation is enough.

Dadjoke
The argument does not have to accept that TWAM, merely that trans women are advantaged because of their physiognomy

Now why would trans women have physiological advantages? Oh yes. Because they are men. Don't tell me what I can and cannot say.

Because this is the least oppressed rights movement ever to exist.

Quite.

The issue with studies comparing transwomen to biological women in terms of sports performance is not only that very little has been done, its that its unfeasible to do any. Even if you compare the average transwoman to the average woman, you cannot extend these results to a comparison of a top transwoman athlete to a top woman athlete. The number of top transwomen athletes is currently too small to do a statistically useful investigation. And even if there were more transwomen athletes, are these really comparable to top female athletes? Or are they actually second rate male athletes who are transitioning, rather than the real top of the male bell curve?

Basically, its a nonsense, and common sense should just take precedence.

What possible tests or restrictions would provide a level playing field under these circumstances?

None. The playing field is not level, and that's why separate categories for men and women were created in the first place.

nellodee

Plus how would you blind the study? It would be in the best interests of any trans women participating in a study to underplay their ability: lift less, run slower, etc. They would need to be blinded to the outcome which is very difficult.

The Liberal Democrat LGBT activist Sarah Brown has lost 5cm in height since starting hormone treatment, according to Sarah Brown.

Maybe Sarah should stand up straight.

Fast forward to Tokyo Olympics. I think there is potential for there to be audience reaction. For example if a transwoman won the womens 100 metres sprint I think there would be a big reaction. I think the fact it is being held in Japan means there is likely to be a politer audience in the stadium. If the 100 womens metres had been won by a transwoman in London I think to be honest there would be a chant of Cheat Cheat.

You have to think about the money and power. The Olympic organisation already seems to have accepted transwomen. I dont know who are the big powers within it and how their views will pan out coming up to the next Olympics.

The other important point is that the sponsors hold a lot of influence because they pay for most of it apart from TV rights. There are 10 longer term sponsors: Coca Cola, Visa, Bridgestone, Samsung, Panasonic, Omega, Procter & Gamble (P&G), General Electric (GE), Dow, and Atos. These have been joined recently by Intel Alibaba and Toyota. McDonalds has stopped its sponsorship after the 2016 Olympics.

I don't know what the sponsors will think. I would think they would not want to be associated with 'cheating' But would want to be woke and connected with young people etc. They are not just as US dominated as I thought they would be . What are Japanese and Chinese attitudes to gender criticism? I haven't a clue.

I do think that after watching for car crash and not being able to believe what they are seeing reasons, people will stop watching womens sport events as there will be no point. Women will have no chance. A lot of the public will I think say why bother dividing women and men at all - there is no point.

I think the sponsors will care a lot if people start to switch off

NotBadConsidering

Plus how would you blind the study? It would be in the best interests of any trans women participating in a study to underplay their ability: lift less, run slower, etc. They would need to be blinded to the outcome which is very difficult.

My first thought when I read what I quoted in a post upthread: Weatherly noted that she hadn't won every race since making the switch - finishing second to Rawson at an event in Canterbury earlier in the month. was that of course Weatherly finished second to Rawson in a race - had to make it look like it was the result of hard work when the inevitable winning started, and not the result of an unfair advantage.

I am not telling people what to say or what not to say

Sorry- hit post accidentally. I am not suggesting giving up the fight in a broader sense. I am suggesting fighting this battle without tying the two issues together. It’s quite possible to argue trans women should not compete in women’s events without starting from TWAM. There is a strong argument that input from those people who believe in sex segregation but also that TWAW will really help.

Again, does anyone have a suggestion who we could contact about this?

Last I heard the committee organizing the Tokyo Olympics was making plans for gender neutral toilets in addition to men's and women's toilets at each venue, so I full expect TRAs to kick off about that at some point. In terms of crowd reaction shocked silence is what I'd expect if someone obviously male wins a female event. It's the sponsors who could bring about change fastest, if they wanted to.

There is a strong argument that input from those people who believe in sex segregation but also that TWAW will really help.

Could you point us towards those people who believe in sex segregation but also that TWAW? Where are they?

An argument that transwomen are advantaged by their physiology, without relating it to any other category description, doesn't work. It simply runs into the 'all elite sports people have unusual physiology' argument, which is perfectly true. The reason that women and non-women need to be segregated in sports classes is that there is an 11% category advantage in being non-female which can't be controlled for any other way. What needs to be said often is that it is not insulting to say that someone is male or female. It is an unemotional category description that should upset nobody and should not have any other implications. It does, of course, which is why feminism exists. But it's a plain fact and sport usually works on facts.

Jocaste I had wondered the same-I imagine that someone like Jazz, born male but transitioned very young, would not have the strength to compete against elite sportswomen.....nobody knows though.
Fact is most people would see the unfairness in someone who has competed as a fully grown man, then transitioning to compete against women. We have to draw the line somewhere.
If we need to include transwomen as a new category then so be it, they can compete against other transwomen.

I don't want to derail the thread with pettiness but I will just leave this here Dadjoke

But don’t call them men

I am not telling people what to say or what not to say

I believe there are paid moderators who have a job to do. I haven't had a deletion yet but I'm happy to take my chances with the people who are doing the job they are paid to do.

Annadale I agree - which is why it’s important to argue from sex-based differences. You can’t have sex segregation without acknowledging sex. But you can do this without saying TWAM.

But you can do this without saying TWAM.

Why would we want to do that? It undermines the clarity of the point being made, tip toeing around biological facts.

Last I heard the committee organizing the Tokyo Olympics was making plans for gender neutral toilets in addition to men's and women's toilets at each venue, so I full expect TRAs to kick off about that at some point.

That has just scrambled my brain. I thought "oh but they'll say they are for the non binaries", but then that was swiftly followed by thinking "which category would non binaries, agender etc compete in? Apart from the Oppression Olympics event, naturally.

"Don't say this...I'm not telling you what to say though"

OK then!

I'm just picturing the committee members innocently, optimistically assuming that they've provided not only what's needed but what will make everyone happy. And then imagining their utter bafflement when TRAs start accusing them of making trans people want to commit suicide.