Open Letter to The IOC regarding transwoman Tiffany Abreu

[happydappy2]

Tiffany was born male and competed as a man, then transitioned to a woman and is now taking the place of a woman on the womans volleyball team. (& is doing very well-they are after all 6 foot 3") A very courageous lady Ana Paula Henkel has written an open letter to the IOC outlining her concerns prior to the 2020 Olympics in Tokyo.
A brave lady indeed. Needs to be talked about though.

There is a strong argument that input from those people who believe in sex segregation but also that TWAW will really help.

No. There isn't. The thing with slippery slopes is that you slip down them.

Show some bloody respect for sportswomen and defend them robustly or don't bother.

Also generally if one believes that there is a strong argument for something it helps to actually make that argument, rather than just stating that there is one.

There are different height/weight charts for Male and Female babies from birth (as seen in the ‘red book’ given to all new babies born in the U.K.) so blocking Male puberty with drugs clearly isn’t enough to wipe out all physiological sex differences.

Only female babies should grow up to qualify for women’s sport.

There are plenty of opportunities for (mixed sex) open competitions and non competitive physical activity so transition need not mean the end of sport for male bodied people.

There is a strong argument that input from those people who believe in sex segregation but also that TWAW will really help.

What? If you believe in sex segregation AND that TWAW then you believe TW should compete with women. Obviously. Because how else could you explain it?

Biological sex and gender identity are two totally separate things. Extreme emotional distress that a desired physical reality isn't achievable is the basis of this huge, sympathy and compassion based illusion and fogging of inconvenient facts and science. Either you believe it's more important to be compassionate about this - regardless of the cost to others and to society - or you believe there are lines that have to be drawn and limits to what can be allowed that must apply fairly and equally to everyone.

That's just it, isn't it? How far is society expected to go to fix that one person's unhappiness? How many other people must be sacrificed in order to ensure that they don't feel thwarted in their desires? Is the answer "all 3.5 billion or so female people"?

Knicknackpaddyflak you can believe TWAW and still acknowledge sex differences. Trans women have a different phenotype because of sexual dimorphism. There is no point in getting bogged down in gender vs sex arguments on this thread.

AngryAttackKittens I have made the argument up thread and on another thread based on the relative performance of men’s and women’s categories, based on sex differences. This does not require references to gender identity at all.

If we agree that sex based differences mean it’s unfair for trans women to compete in the wimen’s category, then we can argue for their exclusion based on their sex at birth. Their gender is not relevant.

Transwomen have a different phenotype? One that is completely coincidentally the same as an adult human males’s phenotype?

Either you believe sex is determined biological or you believe it’s determined psychologically - only one has any relevance to fair sporting categorisation.

LangCleg I think that trans women should not compete in the women’s sports categry and it should be based on sex, not gender. I have strong evidence for that based on the data - a much stronger argument than TWAM. The problem is their better performance not their gender identity.

Please, anyone - any suggestions for someone to write to?

BettyDuMonde who on earth suggested it’s a coincidence? It’s based on sex, not gender.

Sex is determined physically. Anyone who suggests sexual dimorphism isn’t real or that because of a tiny number of people are intersex, sex is somehow a spectrum are arguing entirely from ideology.

Well, yes, gender identity is irrelevant to sport, because what matters is sex. So in the context of sport "transwomen are women" is a complete absurdity and should not be pandered to in any way.

I am struggling with your posts DadJoke - I think what you are saying at 12.43 is that saying 'transwomen are men and that's why they should compete in men's categories' is such an upsetting way of putting it that instead you should say 'transwomen as a group perform in a different way from women and that's why they should not compete in women's categories'. I.e. that you want to say the same thing, but without directly saying what sex transwomen are. I don't know if that represents your argument correctly?

If I've understood your argument, I think you're wrong, I'm sorry. I think perhaps you want this sport problem solved, and think that this way of saying it will allow more people to agree on this particular issue. You perhaps want to avoid sport being used as an exemplar issue which transfers to other situations? If so, I can see why you are looking for ways to avoid stating that biological sex at conception has significant physical implications for the whole life of an individual, whether they compete in sport or not. But I think that statement is important to make. I think if it takes killing off women's sport, and ruining the Olympics and all elite competition, to get this issue faced head on, then what must be must be. I would rather keep women's sport alive and keep the integrity of all elite sport, AND then look at the implications of what was required to do that. I gained enormous amounts from competing at a relatively high level in women's sport, which I would not have gained just from participating. But if women's sport has to be the way in which the world understands what is happening, then so it must be.

The problem is their better performance not their gender identity.

"Gender identity" is irrelevant. This is about sex, which is the reason for the performance differential. Pandering to gender identity is entirely the problem.

Oops pretty much repeated your post AAK!

Either you believe sex is determined biological or you believe it’s determined psychologically - only one has any relevance to fair sporting categorisation.

Exactly this.

My argument is simple. Sex segregation is necessary in sport if we support the idea of women competing fairly at the highest levels. Gender segregation does not support this. None of this speaks to whether trans woman are women. The nub of the gender argument is that trans women are women because of gender identity. You can believe that trans women are women (gender) while accepting that sex segregation is right.

This is the cutting edge of defending sex based rights; win this and everything else follows.

You can believe that trans women are women (gender) while accepting that sex segregation is right.

I don't believe in "gender" in the way you do though. So there you go. Sex is the only factor.

This is the cutting edge of defending sex based rights

The fact that you assume that your thoughts represent the cutting edge and everyone else here needs to catch up is male socialization at work.

I don't believe in "gender" in the way you do though

It's like if someone was arguing that we should segregate sporting categories by hair length, or favorite food. No, that's stupid, why would we do that?

Ha I missed that comment! How very grandiose.

Like if we took the very polite argument about whether mince pies should have icing on them and created a pro-icing league and a anti-icing league in football. I mean, we could, but why? It's silly, and so is segregating sports by which set of stereotypes people prefer.

you can believe TWAW and still acknowledge sex differences. Trans women have a different phenotype because of sexual dimorphism.

I respect your belief. I don't share it.

There is no point in getting bogged down in gender vs sex arguments on this thread.

It really is the bottom line of the whole argument. Either you hold this belief and share in this ideology or you don't. The issue is, whether legislation and official decisions on competition should be formed on the basis of a belief that means compelling those who don't hold it to participate.

You can believe that trans women are women (gender)

Well you can. Personally I believe there isn't a 'woman' gender, it's impossible to pin down with out a whole lot of sexist stereotypes that the majority of biological women don't have. Again it's warping reality, science, language and concepts to frantically try and find a way to not have to say to very distressed people, I'm really sorry but some bits of reality have to be dealt with.

If you don't agree with TW competing against women, because of sex based differences that make it unfair, what do you feel should happen instead?

I see four basic options.

• Force the celebration of TW in women groups as brave/stunning and wonderful inclusion, which forces a lie, oppresses all women for the benefit of a group of men, and destroys women's sport in pursuit of a political ideology. Obviously, really not good and won't end well.

• Retain sex based competitions, accepting that people of one sex may identify with a wide range of genders and that's great. However the impact of surgery and hormones for trans athletes may disadvantage them in their own sex class.

• Create a new competition category which would probably need to work on points for fairness the way fair competition is managed for disabled athletes, and look internationally at promoting and raising funding for trans athlete programmes.

• The rule becomes that making the choice to move past a certain point in transition with regard to hormones cannot be compatible with a career in competing.

you can believe TWAW and still acknowledge sex differences

Only if you agree that women are not female dadjoke.

I disagree with your arguments, (dadjoke) but also I think that if one does not specifically state that the reason to exclude TW is because they are men(=male), then not only are you suggesting women give up the language women need to describe ourselves=women), but you are by default making the argument that different types of 'women' can be legitimately excluded from each other.

And that is worrying for so many reasons, but also that legally this would surely be arguing that you are discriminating against TW because they are TW ie because of their gender identity, which I understand to be illegal under the EA when the actual objection is that regardless of whatever gender/ social identity TW perceive they have, they remain men=male biologically.

The fact hat this gets so convoluted is also surely an argument for using simple biological and legal facts.

Hard as it may be for some people to hear TWAM and when it comes to discussing real, nitty gritty stuff we need to be able to state the whole and complete truth.

There is no point in getting bogged down in gender vs sex arguments on this thread.

"There's no point in getting bogged down in discussing the food in this restaurant review!"

I mean, if specific individuals believe that they can be most effective by actively avoiding the core of the issue then have at it, I guess. The rest of us are going to continue pointing out that it is in fact the main issue though.