Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Open Letter to The IOC regarding transwoman Tiffany Abreu

208 replies

happydappy2 · 13/12/2018 13:14

Tiffany was born male and competed as a man, then transitioned to a woman and is now taking the place of a woman on the womans volleyball team. (& is doing very well-they are after all 6 foot 3") A very courageous lady Ana Paula Henkel has written an open letter to the IOC outlining her concerns prior to the 2020 Olympics in Tokyo.
A brave lady indeed. Needs to be talked about though.

OP posts:
DadJoke · 14/12/2018 16:33

VickyEadie if your language assumes that trans woman are not women then no one outside mumsnet will listen to you. We need to frame this in terms of sex versus gender segregation to make progress. It’s quite possible to do this without it being read as transphobia.

UpstartCrow · 14/12/2018 16:37

Only 19% of the general population are prepared to say 'trans women are women', so I disagree with that statement that no one will listen for that reason.

If no one listens to women, its yet another symptom of misogyny, and the fact that women are not trans women.

InfiniteSheldon · 14/12/2018 16:45

Transwomen are not women and we should not be made to say so

andyoldlabour · 14/12/2018 17:00

@DadJoke

There are men, women and men who ID as women. There are also women who ID as men, but they don't seem to create many problems, in fact you hardly ever hear from them.
Nobody should be forced to ignore biological differences in order to push a political agenda.
Please do not think that nobody outside Mumsnet will accept that trans women are not women, because you are very much mistaken.

WallyTheWasher · 14/12/2018 19:00

Oh come on DadJoke
“If your language assumes that trans women are not women”

They aren’t women.

Do you really think the man on the street or white van man or the man on the Clapham Omnibus really thinks TW are actually women?!

DadJoke · 14/12/2018 19:16

What I said was nuanced. I didn’t say you need to acknowledge trans women are women, I think you need to argue that sex and gender segregation are different things.

To appeal to an audience which can actually effect change, you need to avoid the discussion degenerating into TWAW vs TWAM. You don’t need to win that argument in order to push for sex segregation.

BruceAndNosh · 14/12/2018 19:24

So why did the Olympic Committee nullify all those records and medals of Eastern Bloc female athletes who had been made by their coaches to take steroids?
But now it's OK for be a "female" athlete with T levels significantly higher than most natal women?

DadJoke · 14/12/2018 19:31

If you say “trans women should not compete because they are not women” you will get absolutely nowhere.

There are plenty of reasons discussed up thread and elsewhere on this site which break down in great detail why an absence of sex segregation will ruin women’s sports and that is what will have the effect we are looking for.

DadJoke · 14/12/2018 19:34

BruceAndNosh it’s not OK at all. Testosterone reduction does not compensate for years of development as an XY person.

WallyTheWasher · 14/12/2018 19:38

I think it needs to be honest. TW are male. That is the point. If we aren’t honest then the whole point of objecting to men in women’s sports is lost.

BruceAndNosh · 14/12/2018 19:39

@DadJoke did you miss the? at the end of my sentence?

MsMcWoodle · 14/12/2018 19:43

DadJoke - are you a man? I don't understand why it is ok to come here and tell women how they should be behaving.
Also - nobody really believes that transwomen are women. Nobody.

Materialist · 14/12/2018 19:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ChristmasWrappingTheWaitresses · 14/12/2018 20:16

At the end of the day it's very simple. Trans women are biologically male and therefore should not be competing against biological females in sports. That should be the end of discussion.

ErrolTheDragon · 14/12/2018 20:41

I think you need to argue that sex and gender segregation are different things.

Sure. The former is something that's necessary in certain circumstances, for various reasons. Sport is one of those, because humans are physically as well as sexually dimorphic. I can't think of any case at all where segregation by 'gender' is necessary, can you?

DadJoke · 14/12/2018 20:47

MsMcWoodle I am suggesting a course of action which I think is more likely to result in a positive outcome. Take it or leave it.

I don’t think trans women should compete in sports in any sport in the women’s category where sex-based phenotypical variations give them an advantage. See how I said that without making any assumptions as to whether twaw. If you want to win that debate before winning this one, good luck with that.

Iused2BanOptimist · 14/12/2018 21:40

I don’t think trans women should compete in sports in any sport in the women’s category where sex-based phenotypical variations give them an advantage.

Surely it's much simpler to keep with sex based segregation across the board. (Except things like equestrian sport which has always been mixed). Opening up a new possibilities for argument regarding defining which sports are subject to sex to sex-based advantages and which don't just makes matters worse.

DadJoke · 14/12/2018 22:11

ErrolTheDragon not without going way off topic and derailing the thread.

IUsed2BAnOptimist I wasn’t suggesting that we expand the number of mixed sports.

Ereshkigal · 14/12/2018 22:14

If you want to win that debate before winning this one, good luck with that.

They aren't. Unless you define the material category to replace adult human female, debate really. HTH.

LangCleg · 14/12/2018 22:21

if your language assumes that trans woman are not women then no one outside mumsnet will listen to you

Correction. Depending on which of the three professional surveys so far undertaken, between 75% and 87% of the population will agree with you. However, it is correct to say that no-one with institutional or corporate or political power will listen to you.

Because this is the least oppressed rights movement ever to exist.

Iused2BanOptimist · 14/12/2018 22:33

Dad joke I meant that it would be substituting the argument that trans women (men) shouldn't compete against women with a new argument that maybe they could but it all depends....
Best keep it simple imo.

cheminotte · 14/12/2018 22:45

Well done Ana

DadJoke · 14/12/2018 22:56

IUsed2BAnOptimist I get you. But don’t call them men.

Jocasta2018 · 14/12/2018 23:22

I'm going to throw this into the debate.

The issue with the current trans women competitors is that they've been through puberty, their bodies have developed as men due to testosterone and no amount of surgery or hormones can reduce that physical advantage over natal women. To me, this means they should not be competing against women who had a natural oestrogen-fuelled puberty.

However...... What if a male-born child suffering from gender dysphoria is put on puberty blockers before puberty even really starts? Their physical development in theory stops until they are then given oestrogen to facilitate their gender change. How would this affect their sporting performance? Would the fact that they'd not gone through a male puberty give them the same level of strength as a woman or would they still have even a little bit of the male advantage?

I guess we won't know the answers until the current generation of children taking puberty blockers (plus the hormone of their choice) reach adulthood. I'll be interested to see how this all pans out.

Excellent letter.

VickyEadie · 14/12/2018 23:54

TW are male. That is the point. If we aren’t honest then the whole point of objecting to men in women’s sports is lost.

Any response which in any respect accepts TWAW means the argument is entirely lost. The only basis for objecting to TW in women's sport is that they are men.