to wonder why some people just don't get it?

[papayasareyum]

Why don’t people get it?
There was a post on Facebook yesterday, regarding male violence, with regards self ID and crime statistics. Someone on the thread mentioned male violence patterns. They were jumped on by many angry voices, saying things like: “you’re a transphobic piece of shit” and “you’re a complete bigot, trans women are women you moron” and “trans women are not men, so you can’t bring them into the discussion”
I mean, it’s illogical and surely at some level these people must know that? Are they deliberately pretending not to understand or do they genuinely just avoid thinking coherently on Trans issues. Is it easier to bleat TWAW and #no debate than think it through? I just don’t get it. These are really intelligent women too. (for some reason, men are faster to understand the GC discussion than women)

They're being politically correct. They've been told that supporting minorities is the key to social approval, so regardless of the truth they'll spout whatever moral fashion demands.

I have a very intelligent female friend. She doesn't get it. She's s teacher too, so she has a platform for her views unfortunately.

I think men do get this particular subject perversely but their thinking is not about equality and women's rights - it's about a knee jerk negative mocking reaction to seeing a bloke in a skirt acting like a bird.

I think they get so angry because of the cognitive dissonance. They can't argue their position in any other way than emotive bullshitting so they won't entertain any thoughts about it at all.

I think a big part of it is people wanting to be (or wanting to be seen to be) kind. We are hugely conditioned to be kind, think of other peoples feelings and generally "play nice"

When you're confronted by people accusing you of being hateful and causing hurt , it's easy to see how many people default to people pleasing and justify it to themselves as maybe the issues don't affect them directly, right here today and it doesn't hurt to be nice...

Not being nice can take a bit of getting used to, but some people seem determined to push as many of us as possible to the point where we say fuck being nice, I'm fucking angry!

I don’t know how much it helps, but I once came across the phrase ‘its easier for people to forgive you when you’re wrong than when you’re right’

I can understand disagreements, but it's the rage I don't get. Women on FWR were called repulsive yesterday.

I can understand people seizing hold of it, with glee, as a new way of sticking to women, whilst looking progressive. That I get. And, of course, many women don't get feminism, either. Internalised misogyny is a weird thing.

And I agree, that people don't like to think of being transphobic in the same way they don't like to think of being homophobic.

It's also to do with ignorance, That they can't tell that the people who are pointing out the flaws in all this, are left-wing, minority supporting women, many of whom are lesbians. Not UKIP voting, gay bashing bigots.

Men often get it, because men know what men are like.

Not only that, they won't even listen when you point out that what you're mostly worried about are the predatory men who will take advantage of self-id, etc.

You can't even point out the fucking obvious - it still makes you a transphobic bigot, even when you're not actually talking about trans people.

I too think the rage comes from the cognitive dissonance being pointed out. It’s emotionally painful and that pain is expressed as anger. They don’t have answers to the questions so they don’t want to hear the questions. Otherwise they’d have to reformulate their narratives and then it would all come crashing down.

Your average person who isn’t on twitter or other social media just isn’t aware of what’s going on, ime. Trans ideology would fail 'the man on the Clapham omnibus' test, imo, as people are being bullied into believing something that just isn't true. Do women have penises? Of course they don’t, don’t be silly.

To go back to the average person again, most I’ve raised the topic with think that a trans woman is a woman. But a natal woman. But that’s because they don’t understand the vocabulary. So they think a trans woman is a natal female who wants to be a bloke. So transing from rather than transing to. I would be interested in knowing if this is a widespread view.

Men do seem to grasp it more quickly. They don’t want women in the gents or pervs/weirdos/nonces/paedos (their words) in the ladies. They don’t want Dave in his dress and his badly applied lipstick in the same changing rooms as their wives, sisters and daughters. Being normal decent everyday blokes they understand the risks to women and girls of self-id.

There's been a lot of false stories, allegations etc especially over the last year. They have bounced around on social media & been absorbed.

BBC & Guardian are influential.

So too Amnesty, Stonewall etc

I didn't get it for quite a long time.
I wanted to be nice.
I was a card carrying Guardian reader.
I'd even bought a copy of The Establishment.
I was scared of being called a bigot.
And I mean Stonewall - they were practically a national treasure.

But most of all, I honestly thought there must be more to the argument than 'TWAW', and that there must be some new knowledge or research that I had missed and that would make sense of it all.

I think lots of people can imagine the hostility transperson, especially male transpeople face.

So as a result, they try to make there lives easier, by giving them what they want - and in the case of male transpeople, that's access to women's spaces, and modification of language.

For some, I think that the fact that this excludes many women and girls and puts them in danger, is an unforeseen consequence. I think some see the problem, but think it's a small percentage of women that will be harmed, so it's worth it?

Slightly off topic, but until a few weeks ago, I had never given the issue more than a benign passing thought. I thought the trans issue was just the final tidying up of the LGB rights. Feminism for me was on the back burner, most of our work done, or being completed (cringe). I wasn't on Twitter. Then a NZ MP stated "we don't want any fucken terfs" at this March For Women's Reproductive Rights, so I casually (haha oh how I laugh now) googled "terfs". What I discovered was so surreal that I had to pause and check my non-conspiracytheory privilege. I can't unsee any of it. I'm girding my loins to go into battle (altho hard to find GC people in Christchurch NZ hint hint). I have had to stay silent around pro trans friend's/family so far as I would get screamed down.

Personally I think people do get it. They are just virtue signalling. Their anger is a defence as they know their 'arguments' dont stand up to scrutiny

DH and I had a conversation with PIL at the weekend about universal credit (6 week wait for money, 4 weeks pay reset application and food banks) they were horrified about it but they will still continue to vote conservative. It is like a tribe they belong to. There identity is conservative voter no amount of logical will change it.

Random story but I think it is similar to the lack of understanding of trans issues. Their tribe is acceptance and equality so therefore they must support the trans cause.

I know VickyEadie - what Illyria47 and I have stressed in all our representations to the NZ government is that opposition to Self ID is not bigotry, but a sensible awareness that without some kind of monitoring the process is open to abuse. All people want is time set outside for public consultation on this issue, with all the arguments fully considered.
We asked the Minister of Women (Green MP Julie Ann Genter) questions about procedure and monitoring, but our email has been forwarded for reply to NZ First MP Tracey Martin, sponsor of the Bill. I hope at least Julie Ann Genter was given the email to read before it was forwarded. Our local MP has copies of our emails and letter to the PM, plus various articles we thought might be helpful.
yeahnahyeah do you think your MP might listen to concerns over Self ID?

Otepoti, yeah that's the plan. I need to research the 'correct' or best way to both email MPs and others (Kim Hill? other journos/people with power?), or talk to my local MP. IE, can/should I send links to back up my concerns? Should I stick to just the Self ID issue, or encompass the whole clusterfuck? I've never done this before so it's a learning curve.

Ok, I googled "how to lobby your MP" so have lots of info now.

yeahnahyeah we started with the website Speak Up for Women NZ, and basically used their analysis and solution to Self ID as a template for our representations. We started with our local MP, who was receptive to our concerns. We emailed Paula Bennett, Opposition spokesperson for Women. She has passed on that email to the Minister. Probably Tracey Martin. We wrote to the PM, with copies to the leaders of the coalition parties. Illyria47 has engaged with Jan Logie, Green MP, who assured her by the way that sex segregated spaces will not be affected by Self ID! We will see.
We stuck to the issue of whether the right to have women only spaces would be superseded by Self ID. We stressed the difference between sex and gender, and the need to make that very clear in the legislation.
If you have useful links and articles, include them. We have.
Good luck.

Thanks so much sister.

But most of all, I honestly thought there must be more to the argument than 'TWAW', and that there must be some new knowledge or research that I had missed and that would make sense of it all.

What sort of research did you imagine? Someone proving the brain sex theory and that men who identify as women show some brain difference from other men?

I mean, I can't imagine anyone in the UK honestly believing that there could be new research that humans are clownfish and can change sex.
(The US is a different thing, it seems to be quite easy there to get through life without ever seeing an informative graphic of the reproductive organs of both sexes, or learning about chromosomes, and so on.)

I was shocked to see a very high profile radfem with a long history of campaigning against male violence seemingly 'not get it' on twitter recently. Suggesting that you share your bathroom at home with your husband so why do you need female only public toilets? I simply do not understand how somebody with such expertise and experience in female oppression, VAWG and safeguarding could so blatantly miss the point. It was quite upsetting actually and I refuse to believe that they can't understand so I don't know what the motivation is.

In some ways it would be almost comforting if there was some other motivation, because I too refuse to believe they can't understand. One response to that ridiculous statement would be that one's husband had been thoroughly vetted before one agreed to share a bathroom with him, with the emphasis being on the "agreed" part.

Lots of people will look at you as if you are mad. Because it all sounds so utterly mad.

E.g. when you inform people that a convicted rapist (male, obvs) was placed in a female prison, because he claimed to "identify as a woman" and the relevant managers took him at his word. And then he went on to sexually assault women who were locked up with him.

People look at you as if you're mad and say, "But that couldn't happen."

People look at you as if you're mad and say, "But that couldn't happen."'

Yeah, that happens to me all the time.

I honestly can't understand why. Not since Trump became US president, anyway.

People should by now be aware that just because it sounds like utter madness doesn't mean it can't happen.

What sort of research did you imagine? Someone proving the brain sex theory and that men who identify as women show some brain difference from other men?
I honestly don't know - I just couldn't believe anyone was seriously arguing with a straight face that if a child liked certain clothes or had certain interests it meant they were a girl. The first time I heard about that Mermaids Barbie/GI Joe thing, I thought it must be a spoof, that they couldn't possibly be getting public money to go into schools and say it. Even now, whenever a TRA drops in to educate us, I always wonder whether this time they might have something half sensible to say. But it never happens!