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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

to wonder why some people just don't get it?

158 replies

papayasareyum · 12/12/2018 15:18

Why don’t people get it?
There was a post on Facebook yesterday, regarding male violence, with regards self ID and crime statistics. Someone on the thread mentioned male violence patterns. They were jumped on by many angry voices, saying things like: “you’re a transphobic piece of shit” and “you’re a complete bigot, trans women are women you moron” and “trans women are not men, so you can’t bring them into the discussion”
I mean, it’s illogical and surely at some level these people must know that? Are they deliberately pretending not to understand or do they genuinely just avoid thinking coherently on Trans issues. Is it easier to bleat TWAW and #no debate than think it through? I just don’t get it. These are really intelligent women too. (for some reason, men are faster to understand the GC discussion than women)

OP posts:
HestiaParthenos · 15/12/2018 22:35

Can't think why he's not doing that.

I suppose he's too cowardly to face the male on male verbal violence he might get if he went to a forum predominantly frequented by males. Hmm

TornFromTheInside · 15/12/2018 22:35

Scott, there's two very different aspects at play here.

Male violence (on men and women alike) is clearly the overwhelming problem. We get that, and we also understand that men are often the victims of violence themselves. Nobody disputes that.

However, we also know that we have in place some specific measures that help to afford females some protection / safe harbour from male violence or to afford them privacy. With the potential introduction of Self-ID, or more importantly the notion what any Self-ID'ing person must be granted free access into those spaces, we erode those protections of biological females.

This thread discusses how many people don't seem to 'get it' or comprehend the dangers that creating a laissez-faire attitude to choosing gender (or seemingly sex) opens up. It's not that people are anti-trans, it's that they are cautious of anything that erodes female rights and by implication, their safety and privacy too.

It's absolutely not a perfect world for men either, but it's predominantly females who'll be most affected by Self-ID and the associated loss of rights.

VickyEadie · 15/12/2018 22:36

Monday morning, Scott's workplace.

Colleague: Morning Scott. Good weekend? Wha did you get up to?

Scott: Putting the feminists right on their feminist forum.

Colleague: You sad bastard...

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 16/12/2018 00:01

Why are lesbians being told it is “transphobic” to refuse transwomen as lovers but heterosexual men not being told the same? Is is because heterosexual men would simply refuse and that response would’ve be,er, accepted?

ScottCheggJnr · 16/12/2018 00:15

I don't know why lesbians are being told that, but TRAs are such a small proportion of the population that in reality there are loads more people telling you that you shouldn't eat meat, the world is flat etc. Who gives a shit what somebody else thinks you should do?

And Vicky, I'm not 'putting feminists right'. This is a discussion board for the purpose of discussion, not some indoctrination area despite what many seem to think. It's easy to ridicule people's opinions. What do you think your colleagues would think if you told them you'd spent another weekend 'moaning about men on the internet'?

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 16/12/2018 00:22

No

womanformallyknownaswoman · 16/12/2018 00:50

I think the question OP is why do men use cyberspace anonymity as a cover to use violence against women? Why do some men get off by breaking women’s boundaries, entering their spaces where they are not wanted (physically, psychologically, verbally, sexually, emotionally or financially), by telling women what to do and think and say, controlling women’s bodies and so on?

They may distract by using accusations of transphobia but that’s not the truth - the truth is they like trashing women and their spaces.

kesstrel · 16/12/2018 07:23

I think the question OP is why do men use cyberspace anonymity as a cover to use violence against women?

Male aggression online is undoubtedly a problem. However, I don't think we can criticise transactivists for using the phrase "literal violence" when they actually mean verbal criticism or attacks, while at the same time stretching the meaning of the word 'violence' ourselves.

Also, I think we all understand pretty well why some men do this, because feminism has been talking about male hostility to women for a long time.

I think the OP's original question, about why so many intelligent women have bought the TRA line is much more interesting.

R0wantrees · 16/12/2018 08:03

I think the OP's original question, about why so many intelligent women have bought the TRA line is much more interesting.

Hmm
to wonder why some people just don't get it?
kesstrel · 16/12/2018 08:22

Rowantreees ??? [It's early....]

VickyEadie · 16/12/2018 08:38

What do you think your colleagues would think if you told them you'd spent another weekend 'moaning about men on the internet'?

I see you associate women discussing feminist issues on a feminist board with "moaning about men".

We see you and your reasons for being here.

R0wantrees · 16/12/2018 08:46

kesstrel

The screenshot quote was made by Professor Sally Hines (Leeds University) yesterday.
Professor Hines is influential.

Apologies, I was Hmm ing at her statement, not your comment which I agree is really important.

(haven't had coffee yet!)

TornFromTheInside · 16/12/2018 09:38

The assertion that people who use the term 'female' have an anti-trans agenda is ludicrous in the extreme.

I use it when I want to include girls as well as women. I use it to differentiate sex (male and female). Countless others do likewise.

Anti-trans agenda my arse.

Datun · 16/12/2018 09:54

I don't know why lesbians are being told that, but TRAs are such a small proportion of the population that in reality there are loads more people telling you that you shouldn't eat meat, the world is flat etc. Who gives a shit what somebody else thinks you should do?

And that the perfect demonstration of why you just don't get it. Every lesbian attempting to find the lesbian scene has this problem. There are no women only spaces where lesbians can gather together any more. And women cannot just dismiss male coercion in the airy way you just have.

Did #MeToo pass you by entirely? It ran to million posts another 24 hours. It's incredible telling that you can just minimise it with who gives a shit.

Tell me, scott on a night out, say, what precautions might you take in an attempt to avoid sexual assault/sexual harassment?

VickyEadie · 16/12/2018 11:28

The abuse and exclusion lesbians have suffered in various countries - at meetings and events supposedly specifically for lesbians - from TRAs and their acolytes appears to have passed Scott by.

LangCleg · 16/12/2018 12:06

The main thing that strikes me about many men - not you, Torn! - who insist on sharing their lordly pronouncements hereabouts is how dreadfully insecure they must be to see a group of women talking together sans male supervision to be something so threatening it must be disrupted. And how banal and superficial and hackneyed everything they have to say is.

It's so my penis is so stalwart and special, it's the only one to ever have had these stunning insights. No love - you never deviate from the boring norm of the intrusive man.

Ereshkigal · 16/12/2018 12:39

It's the judgment of Solomon they affect that I can't stand. Here I am, a man, you're both unreasonable, I'm going to referee your petty squabbling. It's not reasonable for you to exclude all MTF trans from female spaces, but I agree you shouldn't get death and rape threats. I'm just so objective and reasonable!

Pennydrew142 · 16/12/2018 13:02

Yeah, I'm not sure why people are allowing themselves to get drawn into this. As long as there are some who do he's going to keep doing it.

I really don’t think anyone should be encouraging him to comment further by engaging. I’d like for threads to stay on-topic but they can’t if we reply and indulge. Anyone coming to a feminist board and saying we are ‘moaning about men on the internet’ deserves to be completely ignored. As if he doesn’t exist. They hate that.

MargueritaPink · 16/12/2018 13:18

Scott had a point in his reply to VickyEadie The comment about what would he say to his work colleagues about how he spent his weekend was downright silly, given it was made by someone who is a prolific poster.

The "moaning about men" comment was in quotation marks and I didn't take it to be meant seriously but rather a retort to the patronising comment by VickyEadie. Although to be honest I think there is an element of moaning about men on here.

MN is not intended to be just for women but before anyone leaps on this post and tells me I am a man. I'm not. I've name changed as another poster has decided to use a name with Lass in it and I am seeing references in trans threads, which I have read but not posted in, to "Lass" which aren't me.

R0wantrees · 16/12/2018 13:22

Scott posts and then leaves fairly regularly
There's a clear and consistant perpsective.

VickyEadie · 16/12/2018 13:32

Although to be honest I think there is an element of moaning about men on here.

Right.

Pennydrew142 · 16/12/2018 17:17

Although to be honest I think there is an element of moaning about men on here.

Oh do bore off

MargueritaPink · 16/12/2018 17:26

FWR really does have a problem with different opinions doesn't it?

No one appointed you the forum moderator.

HestiaParthenos · 16/12/2018 17:35

MN is not intended to be just for women

This here isn't any mumsnet forum, though. It is the feminist forum.

Men who act like they are experts on anything discussed here are just making themselves look ridiculous, and show that they know nothing at all.

It is just plain annoying.

Pennydrew142 · 16/12/2018 17:42

MargueritaPink I’m fine with different opinions on actual issues. I’m not fine with you coming here and saying the feminist board is about ‘moaning about men’, it’s goady childish nonsense that is clearly written to pick fights. So I’ll absolutely keep telling people like you to piss off with that nonsense