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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

to wonder why some people just don't get it?

158 replies

papayasareyum · 12/12/2018 15:18

Why don’t people get it?
There was a post on Facebook yesterday, regarding male violence, with regards self ID and crime statistics. Someone on the thread mentioned male violence patterns. They were jumped on by many angry voices, saying things like: “you’re a transphobic piece of shit” and “you’re a complete bigot, trans women are women you moron” and “trans women are not men, so you can’t bring them into the discussion”
I mean, it’s illogical and surely at some level these people must know that? Are they deliberately pretending not to understand or do they genuinely just avoid thinking coherently on Trans issues. Is it easier to bleat TWAW and #no debate than think it through? I just don’t get it. These are really intelligent women too. (for some reason, men are faster to understand the GC discussion than women)

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 14/12/2018 01:20

Men are 4x more likely to be assaulted by a stranger

maybe they're not as good at risk assessment as women?

ScottCheggJnr · 14/12/2018 01:23

maybe they're not as good at risk assessment as women?

Or maybe we're conditioned to believe that male violence is more acceptable (ignoring the victim blaming in your statement).

ScottCheggJnr · 14/12/2018 01:29

By which I meant 'violence against males' rather than 'violence committed by males'.

R0wantrees · 14/12/2018 01:44

I don't understand why posters always use the above statement as if it cancels out the impact of violence on a male individual.

No its to name the nature of the violence which is male as well as the impact on the male victims.

The term 'strangers' obscured the fact that this is male violence directed towards men.

I had posted about the need to name male-pattern abuse when you commented.

kesstrel · 14/12/2018 07:37

The problem with this is the same problem as the claim "people who drive less have fewer accidents".

Unless you control for difference in the number of hours males and females spend in violence-likely situations (out on the street on their own, in dodgy areas, in pubs, dealing drugs etc), then those figures don't really mean much.

In societies where women spend all their time sequestered indoors away from strangers, obviously the incidence of stranger violence against women will be close to zero. In our society, women are much more careful not to expose themselves to such situations than men are, and this is bound to affect the figures, in the same way that not driving much will decrease your susceptibility to being hit by another car.

LangCleg · 14/12/2018 09:37

Clue for Scott: male on male violence has got fuck all to do with women, therefore it's rarely discussed on a feminist board, even with derailing MRAs.

Ereshkigal · 14/12/2018 09:39

What Lang said.

Datun · 14/12/2018 10:19

Men aren't subjected to relentless shouted comments from the age of seven, along the lines of "show us your tits, love". Groped in clubs, wanked at on tubes, sexually harassed by bosses and co-workers. Twenty percent of women have been sexually assaulted over the course of their life.

And any weedy bloke can, and does, do it.

Men do not see the threat through anywhere near the same lens.

If, every time you went out, a 7 foot bloke was asking you to show him your cock, and if you answer back, you get a mouthful of threatening abuse, you'd soon get it.

VickyEadie · 14/12/2018 11:24

Clue for Scott: male on male violence has got fuck all to do with women, therefore it's rarely discussed on a feminist board, even with derailing MRAs.

Yep. I don't go on to men's forums where they're discussing prostate cancer and whinge about why they're not discussing cervical cancer.

KittiesInsane · 14/12/2018 11:52

When I told people that Guides were letting boys who identified as trans sleep in the same tents as girls, they flat out would not believe me.

I'm not sure that they actually are. The problem is that their policies now say that they can and should, unless the boy doesn't want to.

DD told me kindly that I was worrying about nothing, as all the trans children she knows at school and sports avoid the single-sex changing areas and use the staff loos, 'so it's not a problem, is it?'

Funnily enough, they're all girls who identify as boys, not the other way round.

ShotsFired · 14/12/2018 15:03

WPUK: We believe in the right of everyone to live their lives free from discrimination and harassment.

I was at a WPUK meeting. We were a bunch of people (mostly women, plus 1-2 men and 1-2 transsexuals) sat in a premises which had been openly and legally booked, eating (delicious!) burgers and listening to women speak in a friendly, interesting and oftentimes funny, set of speeches and discussions. It was great!

The mostly male bunch of masked protesters who hunted us down across 5 venues, banging on doors/windows, calling names, booing, hissing, having to be told repeatedly to move away from the premises by the venue security; and then trying to intimidate us as we left, were not undertaking any form of equivalently civil action.

TornFromTheInside · 14/12/2018 15:41

Male on male violence shouldn't be ignored, but what we are discussing remains the same, men are the chief perpetrators of violent acts. Whilst we can't protect men from other violent men in all circumstances, there are measures we can (and have) put in place that do help to protect women. Those measures stand to be eroded if we allow biological men (in any guise) access to female only places (traditionally a safe haven for women).

It is no answer to say that 'well men suffer at the hands of men too, and they aren't afforded the same protections', or 'male on male violence is even worse'. Why would that affect a choice to compromise the safety of women?

Absolutely, any form of violence between people needs to be minimised where possible, and ideally eradicated, but compromising one group (women) doesn't improve the situation, it only risks their safety, and that's the point being made here (at least I believe so).

R0wantrees · 14/12/2018 18:30

Funnily enough, they're all girls who identify as boys, not the other way round

The massive increase in girls questioning their gender identity is one of the key reasons for the government's announced investigation.

See TransgenderTrend for discussions about ROGD, possible social contagion etc.

Janice Turner, THe Times:
(extract)
"For months, researching the rise in referrals to gender clinics of teenage girls, I’ve been shocked at how the trans lobby, abetted by a cowed LGBT movement and deluded politicians, are prepared to sacrifice the wellbeing of children to attain those two goals.

This week the Scottish government published its transgender guidance for schools, drawn up solely by activist groups such as Mermaids. If Justine Greening implements a highly contentious women and equalities committee report, such rules will apply everywhere. On changing rooms it states: “If a learner feels uncomfortable sharing facilities with a transgender young person, they can be allowed to use a private facility . . . or to get changed after the trans young person is done.” So if a girl objects to showering with a male-bodied pupil, she must go elsewhere or wait outside. For overnight trips: “If a transgender young person is sharing a room with their peers, there is no reason for parents of the other young people to be informed.” So you have no business knowing if your daughter is sleeping alongside someone born a boy.

It recommends schools allow a child to change gender without parental consent. Moreover, if parents are not wholly behind a child’s decision: “It may be useful to approach the local authority for additional guidance”, ie report them to social services, perhaps to question custody.

As in the US, trans kids are now an industry that makes careers
This craze to expedite gender transition in children goes against all clinical advice for “watchful waiting”. The young brain evolves, children change their minds, puberty is troubling for many reasons. Yet the Scottish guidance allows no one to dispute a child’s view, maybe acquired on Reddit and Tumblr, that he or she is in “the wrong body”. Or to suggest that a child may simply be gay. The apparatus of medical transition, a hormone regime causing sterility, plus surgical removal of healthy tissue, is seen as wholly positive. PE teachers must tolerate girls using binders to strap down their hated breasts “which can lead to shortness of breath and can be painful during physical exertion” because they have “a positive impact on a young person’s mental health”.

We are being ordered to endorse a practice reminiscent of Chinese foot-binding or the Victorian tight-lacing craze where girls fainted to achieve the tiniest waist. Should we also hand out fresh razor blades so self-harm wounds don’t go septic? Or “affirm” anorexics’ delusions that they are fat?

In my research I heard from teachers, doctors, parents and trans-folk aghast at children being pushed towards drastic treatment before they can possibly understand how it will affect their future relationships and lives. None would speak out publicly: like Topshop, they feared being labelled transphobic.

Because how quickly we transition kids is the new measure of an enlightened society. Announcing proposals to let 12-year-olds change their legal gender, the SNP equalities secretary Angela Constance boasted that “Scotland rightly has a reputation as one of the most progressive countries in relation to LGBTI rights.” This proves the SNP is more right-on than even Corbyn Labour. Meanwhile the Tories, in a cynical pursuit of youth votes, push for legislative changes they don’t even grasp. “Being trans is not an illness,” said Theresa May recently, “and it should not be treated as such.” So why does it require surgery, drugs and lifelong patienthood?

While trans children are a liberal totem, 50 more are being referred to London’s Tavistock clinic every week. “If there was a 1,000 per cent rise in six years in any other field,” said one doctor, “there would be a major inquiry. Instead no one asks why.” Because trans kids are becoming, as in the US, an industry that makes careers, brings Children in Need and Lottery grants, humanitarian prizes, plaudits, MBEs; it provides a legion of photogenic young foot-soldiers to help secure older trans demands, and for the private clinics, who’ll put your 13-year-old girl on testosterone, it is a mighty cash cow. But in a decade, when our adult children turn to ask, “Why did you let me do this? Why didn’t you stop me?” we may wonder if this was progress or child abuse."
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/children-sacrificed-to-appease-trans-lobby-bq0m2mm95

WallyTheWasher · 14/12/2018 18:52

Men aren't subjected to relentless shouted comments from the age of seven, along the lines of "show us your tits, love". Groped in clubs, wanked at on tubes, sexually harassed by bosses and co-workers. Twenty percent of women have been sexually assaulted over the course

Exactly! And before a man says oh a woman slapped my arse me tooooo where are the females flashing their vulvas and masturbating on public transport? Where are the women rubbing their clitorii on men on the tube?!

AngryAttackKittens · 14/12/2018 19:48

Clue for Scott: male on male violence has got fuck all to do with women, therefore it's rarely discussed on a feminist board, even with derailing MRAs.

Yeah, I'm not sure why people are allowing themselves to get drawn into this. As long as there are some who do he's going to keep doing it.

RE The Guides I also am curious whether this policy is actually being implemented or whether at the local level people are finding quiet ways to avoid doing so. That puts the individual group leaders at risk of retaliation if the latter is true, so even if the policy isn't currently being implemented it's a bad policy and needs to be challenged. Preferably before anything bad happens rather than after it already has.

ScottCheggJnr · 15/12/2018 21:17

male on male violence has got fuck all to do with women, therefore it's rarely discussed on a feminist board, even with derailing MRAs.

But it's rarely mentioned in a vacuum. The inference is always "us women have it so much worse", which you don't when it comes to violence.

ScottCheggJnr · 15/12/2018 21:21

I remember when the University of York cancelled the celebration of IMD a day after a male student had committed suicide - the event had been planning to focus of suicide as one of its key topics.

Guess which group was responsible for the petition not to recognise IMD...

It's things like this that make it important to look at both sides, else the side that shouts the loudest gets all the focus.

LangCleg · 15/12/2018 21:28

The inference is always "us women have it so much worse", which you don't when it comes to violence.

You can infer what you like, love. It seems to be your usual MO.

We, however, know what we are implying.

Clue: it's about women cos this is a feminist board for women.

ScottCheggJnr · 15/12/2018 21:37

I'm not saying anything about "women". Most women aren't staunch feminists.

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 21:47

But this feminist board is about all women.

TornFromTheInside · 15/12/2018 21:59

But it's rarely mentioned in a vacuum. The inference is always "us women have it so much worse", which you don't when it comes to violence.

Well, they do really. Yes, we know that men suffer at the hands of other men too - road rage, drinking etc, but the impact on most men is still minimal. I can go out wearing mostly what I like without fear of being groped, I can stand on a tube train without fear of some woman staring at my crotch - but that is not the case in reverse.

Yes, you can cite that most murder victims are male, but the figures are hugely skewed by gangland male on male attacks rather than common or garden domestic murders and assaults.

That's not mentioning the hugely under-reported domestic violence cases and sexual assault cases.

My daughter's been groped countless times, in public (usually concerts or dancefloors). It's never happened to me as a man. It's happened to almost all her female friends too, but I don't know one man it's happened to.

They have it harder. They always have had.

ScottCheggJnr · 15/12/2018 22:06

Yes, women undoubtedly have it worse in terms of harassment, but on the flipside people are also much more likely to come to the aid of a woman.

One of my friends was in an abusive relationship and whenever she would assault him in on a night out onlookers would find it hilarious - and we're talking about black eyes etc, not just a slap round the face. The reverse would likely get a very different reaction - in fact, I remember him telling me that guys would often intervene and ask if she was ok, despite him being on the receiving end.

Bubonicpanic · 15/12/2018 22:13

What is your objective here Scott?

ScottCheggJnr · 15/12/2018 22:18

I don't have an objective. I'm just voicing an opinion.

LangCleg · 15/12/2018 22:29

Women rarely kill men. They certainly don't rape them. Men kill and rape women. Which is why it is of interest on a feminist board.

If Scott's so interested in male on male violence, he should take it to men.

Can't think why he's not doing that.