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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

to wonder why some people just don't get it?

158 replies

papayasareyum · 12/12/2018 15:18

Why don’t people get it?
There was a post on Facebook yesterday, regarding male violence, with regards self ID and crime statistics. Someone on the thread mentioned male violence patterns. They were jumped on by many angry voices, saying things like: “you’re a transphobic piece of shit” and “you’re a complete bigot, trans women are women you moron” and “trans women are not men, so you can’t bring them into the discussion”
I mean, it’s illogical and surely at some level these people must know that? Are they deliberately pretending not to understand or do they genuinely just avoid thinking coherently on Trans issues. Is it easier to bleat TWAW and #no debate than think it through? I just don’t get it. These are really intelligent women too. (for some reason, men are faster to understand the GC discussion than women)

OP posts:
TimeLady · 13/12/2018 10:52

Paris Lees in the Sunday Times this week:

"“I’ve become a professional trans person on the circuit — there is a circuit, you can make money from it. "

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vogue-columnist-paris-lees-im-the-acceptable-face-of-trans-i-dont-frighten-the-horses-9hfbk0nx5?shareToken=e82b1c4ee7e8f2d5a794438688f8d626

Same old story.....follow the money. It's like a pyramid scheme

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 13/12/2018 11:05

'They would all side with Alex Drummond over any woman in a heartbeat and genuinely seem to want to share intimate spaces with the Alexes of this world. I can’t account for it.'

Sucking up to the powerful. Perfectly normal survival tactic.

Slothslothsloth · 13/12/2018 11:19

So you might think Countess but they’re not generally downtrodden women in any other way, as far as I can see. I think most of them would consider themselves outspoken feminists, and some have social media accounts full of supposedly feminist posts and memes of the “I drink white male tears” variety. It’s like they are sort of mindlessly antagonistic to men until one claims to be a woman, and then they’re falling over themselves to please him.

I say “mindlessly antagonistic” to set this male tears type feminism apart from feminism actually based on systemic analysis of male violence - which of course I don’t think is mindless.

nauticant · 13/12/2018 11:32

but they’re not generally downtrodden women in any other way

One thing I'm only slowly realising is the fear that inhabits the soul of many people who are comfortably off but not absolutely secure who are aware at some level that their comfort could disappear. One can sometimes be surprised at how fiercely they support the status quo.

DrSue · 13/12/2018 11:33

Why don’t people get it?

Don't you ever look at the endless stream of such posts on this forum and think 'actually, maybe I'm the one with the problem' ?

LangCleg · 13/12/2018 11:35

Don't you ever look at the endless stream of such posts on this forum and think 'actually, maybe I'm the one with the problem' ?

No. Next?

(Feeble efforts lately, Sue. You're coasting.)

R0wantrees · 13/12/2018 11:37

Don't you ever look at the endless stream of such posts on this forum and think 'actually, maybe I'm the one with the problem' ?

Not when posts are actually read & thought about no.

This is a useful thread for anyone new to the discussion:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

GodThisIsShit · 13/12/2018 11:43

It was pride that peak transed me. Pride is about being free to be with who you want. So I thought it was awful that people were telling lesbians that they have to be open to transwomen

Yes me too. I watched the live coverage by Prick News of the wonderful group of lesbians who commandeered the front of the march. The male reporter could barely hide his contempt, he was calling it an "anti-trans" protest.

I was screaming at the screen "Are you a gay man?" "Do you like eating p*y?" "Do you crave PIV sex?"

Staggering that in this day and age sexual orientation is coming under attack AND from within the LGBT community itself.

ChewyLouie · 13/12/2018 11:44

DrSue, do you ever come here and think that? Come on, admit it must have crossed your mind at least once: all the brilliant women here are right and the woke world actually is talking bollocks. Keep repeating women are women, it will stick...... eventually.

nauticant · 13/12/2018 11:45

When I wonder how many sterile detransitioning young people there will be fighting for compensation in the future, my sense of being on the wrong side of history abates.

Then I think of rapists in women's prisons, and then think about the rest of the tip of the iceberg before moving onto the iceberg itself and I think it's fortunate that not everyone has gone for the thought-terminating right side of history.

R0wantrees · 13/12/2018 11:51

Yes me too. I watched the live coverage by Prick News of the wonderful group of lesbians who commandeered the front of the march. The male reporter could barely hide his contempt, he was calling it an "anti-trans" protest.

After Ellen article this week calls out Pink News' treatment of Lesbians:
(extract)
"The mainstream media (including the ‘LGBT’ mainstream) are male-dominated (like everything else)… Even lesbian organizations and media are controlled by non-lesbians and male-money—Parent companies or advertisers that ultimately control what we can and cannot say. Mainstream media is like the creepy uncle who shows up at your lesbian dinner party, uninvited, holding a bouquet of d*cks. PinkNews has been called out on social media, time and time again, for what lesbian readers view as biased reporting, anti-lesbian sentiment and misogynistic viewpoints."

www.afterellen.com/general-news/567505-male-run-pink-news-at-odds-with-lesbian-community

HandsOffMyRights · 13/12/2018 11:57

Pink News editor, Ben Cohen's utter contempt for women was evident when he appeared on Politics Live recently.

He physically recoiled, while his facial expressions and gestures (let alone his misogynistic comments) made it quite clear what his agenda is. He is another in a position of power and influence.

He was also involved with an internet porn search engine. Go tell me that he cares about women.

ShimmyShimmyYa · 13/12/2018 11:59

In the 90s I remember a friend of mine shouting from the rooftops her disgust at FGM (though it wasn't called that then)
To my shame- I "shushed" her.
I was embarrassed: it was politically very incorrect to disrespect other cultures in this way and somehow that was much more important than the wrongs of slicing off a clitoris..
That was the climate and I totally bought into it- I did not think about the women in this scenario.
The prevailing woke discourse can be so powerful; it overrides the ability or even inclination to think.
The reason that it doesn't work on me now is that I've matured.

R0wantrees · 13/12/2018 12:00

Pink News editor, Ben Cohen's utter contempt for women was evident when he appeared on Politics Live recently.

Ben Cohen clearly has considerable influence within some political and media circles.

DrSue · 13/12/2018 12:02

DrSue, do you ever come here and think that? Come on, admit it must have crossed your mind at least once: all the brilliant women here are right and the woke world actually is talking bollocks. Keep repeating women are women, it will stick...... eventually.

Yep, almost every major organisation barring the right wing media is wrong and somehow Mumsnet has become one of the few islands of sanity in the world... yessssss.

LangCleg · 13/12/2018 12:11

What are you afraid of, Sue? What scares you so much about women talking to each other and saying things you don't like?

TornFromTheInside · 13/12/2018 12:13

I think it's a pretty logical assumption that a transwoman has male physiology, and whilst there may be aspects of a transwoman that are more feminine, they aren't completely immune to male traits.

Given that, it's not wrong to assert that there's a greater likelihood of violent behaviour. It's not a personal statement, but a class one.

The problem lies in the fact that a transwoman wants to be classed as a woman, and therefore to argue they are male (or part male) seems to offend some. Maybe a better way to express it is that although they are female (for the sake of argument), they evidently have a male physiology which is a result of male biology, ergo they at least inherit some male traits along the way, one of which is a higher tendency to be violent). However you express it, it's a fair statement, but it won't be warmly received.

In truth, it's not usually warmly received by anybody. We don't like to be treated as a 'class', especially when in the context of a negative attribute (violence for instance).

Sometimes, I think if David Attenborough was documenting us, we'd have no problem accepting that men and women have certain predispositions, and of course there's huge overlap, but there are differences 'on the whole'. We just seem to want to bury our heads in the sand or take it all too personally.

theOtherPamAyres · 13/12/2018 12:19

There is a hard-core element that doesn't want to 'get it'.

They don't want to get it, or research it or listen, because they seek a cause that will give them a licence to put on balaclavas, gather together as a tribe and be violent. Whether it's Anti-Facism or Transphobia, you'll see the same people turning up like bad pennies online or in real life.

They talk in slogans. They don't engage. They scream in your face.

KayM2 · 13/12/2018 12:19

Please continue to point out to fans of self ID who think they are being " progressive", that significant numbers of transsexual men and women are against self ID too.

kesstrel · 13/12/2018 12:21

almost every major organisation barring the right wing media is wrong

Entertaining to see Dr Sue inadvertently providing a neat example of precisely the kind of social pressure (in this case through use of the argumentum ad populum fallacy) that this thread has been discussing...Grin

R0wantrees · 13/12/2018 12:25

Yep, almost every major organisation barring the right wing media is wrong and somehow Mumsnet has become one of the few islands of sanity in the world... yessssss.

This is somewhat lazy thinking DrSue
Mumsnet is an open forum & this is a single board amongst many.
Mumsnet hosts a discusssion here, for which it has been under considerable & constant attack:
April 2018
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mumsnet-founder-justine-roberts-transgender-activists-try-to-curb-free-speech-on-site-z3sr3nf6q?shareToken=b2eb62822dd26aecc0f88653978ed23a

Just as it would be foolish to dismiss a writer and their articles solely based on the newspaper or media platform that published it, so too somewhat silly to dismiss all posters' contributions on a such a large site because 'Mumsnet'

Have you read the Morning Star?
morningstaronline.co.uk/article/assault-free-speech-and-free-thought

R0wantrees · 13/12/2018 12:32

Please continue to point out to fans of self ID who think they are being " progressive", that significant numbers of transsexual men and women are against self ID too.

Significant numbers of transsexuals have also played prominant roles in changing policies, legislation, public perceptions etc

Stephen Whittle, Christine Burns, Sarah Brown, Karen Jones, India Willoughby, Paris Lees for example.

Please consider trying to influence those within the transgender communities with power. As the thread demonstrates, women with concerns have quite a lot to do already.

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

R0wantrees · 13/12/2018 12:37

In truth, it's not usually warmly received by anybody. We don't like to be treated as a 'class', especially when in the context of a negative attribute (violence for instance).

Identifying male-pattern violence, abuse and sexual crimes against women and children is vital in order raise awareness, challenge it and improve what are in many aspects serious increases in such crimes.

It isn't just the trans-lobby that prevents male crimes being named as such.

TornFromTheInside · 13/12/2018 12:41

Must we recount the many times in history when the 'few' have been correct?
Must we recall how so often the masses have gone along with the popular view, or conventional wisdom, only to be wrong?

The popularity of a view is no measure of its correctness.

LangCleg · 13/12/2018 12:41

Please continue to point out to fans of self ID who think they are being " progressive", that significant numbers of transsexual men and women are against self ID too.

While bearing in mind that significant numbers in that group are happy to assert that the consent of women does not apply to them.

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