Why my transgender son dosent want self ID

[justanothetnamechange]

HI all, so I've been wanting to make this post for a while but I hire honest Ive been scared to but tonight I'm going for it.
I'm a regular user but have obviously name changed for this.
So I frequent this board often but have never posted before, I am very much for women's rights- as many of us are!! My world turned upside down 6 years ago when my son started having conversations with with us reguarding his gender identity, tbh to begin with I constantly shot him down, but realised that there was no harm in changing his prounouns and name if that what makes him comfortable, although this choice toke a couple years and a lot of arguments! We didn't rush into anything, at school he used disabled toilets and he didn't do PE anyway as it was extra catch up. But wasn't going to do medication at this stage- he could make this choice as an adult if that's what he wanted. He went under CAMHS. That brings us to 2018 he is know 18 years old so it's all very much his choice. He is soon to be assed for testosterone.
I don't want this post to be to much about his journey and please don't go on about how he will never be biologically a man, he knows this he is a proud trans man. This is how self ID would ruin that.
it brings another side of the argument that people might not have always thought about.
My son has gone through a lot of challenges and mile stones to be where he is today they have been emotional.
He feels self ID would take away these milestones.
He recently got his passport through saying male, to do this we had to get two doctors reports and a MH report and proth he was living as his gender. When it came through he cried, celebrated and went for a drink.
He was recently allowed to play for a male football team to do this he needed club approval, a doctors report party and proth he was going to medically transition. He needed to be present for a pane. He just played his first game it was celebrated and a good game to watch.
He works as a man and is treated as a man. But it took a lot of battles.
He is soon to apply for a GRC something he feels is the final step for social transition.
But when he tells people he is transgender he feels people accept him more when he says he's had to go through this. He feels genuine. He under stands sex segregation and respects men's boundary's. He only changes in the male changing room at football for example because they had a meeting about it and everyone said it was fine and even then he come in at the end when everyone's changed to take part in the talks etc.
He doesn't like the idea that someone could say I'm trans one day and get all the rights he's fort for. He doesn't like the idea that people who don't understand transition will come into sex segregated spaces. He doesn't like that he won't feel his long struggles will be looked on in the same way as they were before. This one may sound Selfish- He Dosent like that already stressed resources will become even more stressed as boundary's to be accepted will weaken. He wants to be accepted and knows he won't by everyone but in his opinion it happens more when he has that M in his passport and plus for his local team and when everyone can do this it's not as real. His struggles aren't as real. His battles aren't as real. His tears aren't as real. He feels even more invalidated. when he was 17 we talked about the GRC and he said how happy he'd feel when it came through and how he would have a weight lifted from his shoulders know someone wants to take away from this.
I hope this was right to post and makes sense!!
If anyone has any questions my son and me are happy to try and answer them.
I'm going to go put my hard hat on and hide in a corner just in case!

As I have noted, though, the law really only put in words what was already happening. I only missed by a couple of years the ability to marry my fiance. In the 60s and early 70s transsexuals were legally allowed to do so and birth certificates were changed on a case by case basis then much like other things still were in my case.

This was a very rare medical problem being accommodated as best as medicine and law felt best. We are talking 100 - 200 cases per year in the UK. Much the same number as are still to this day getting GRCs under the present rules.

Whatever the rights or wrongs of this it did not start with the passing of the GRA in 2004. And even now that is only a threat because it is working too well for those it is gatekeeping away from access. Hence the call for self ID to remove gatekeeping.

I feel the best way to get rid of bad drivers off the road is to have a way that allows only good drivers and stops the bad from getting licenses. Not simply do away with licences and let anyone drive because they say that they know how to.

*womantheonlykind -

Mental health services are in crisis and maybe this needs to be focused on. Media is playing it's part by presenting impossibilities as fact and now the governments are joining in by creating myth accommodating law.*

Absolutely - on all points you made, I can't disagree with you.

Could you clarify what you mean by Transgenderism is a symptom. Sorry I'm not understanding in what context...

The fall in mental health involvement and standards would seen to have coincided with the rise of the transgender ideology and the rage against things like posters defining the meaning of the word woman - which is as it has always been and it is simply ridiculous to protest on that or make absurd comments about women having penises as seem to be thought rational these days.

impossibilities as fact

Transgenderism is a symptom of this. Going into schools and telling 5yo that they can choose whether they are boys or girls is setting up failure and unhappiness for the future. It is happening right now at the behest of a tiny cultish minority with no evidence based study and governments ensure it is being protected by law.

Sorry, Womantheonlykind I follow now.

Of course you can't "choose", as you can't deny biological fact. From the standpoint of safeguarding, these groups should not be allowed in schools - period. And this is why I support the work of Transgender Trend over "the other lot..." ie sound evidence-based guidance.

It amuses me when I get called "truscum" or a "self-hating transsexual". No matter what I DO to my body to change my secondary sex characteristics, I will always have XY chromosomes. Why can't the "gender feelz" brigade see this for themselves. Have they been THAT brainwashed?

I mean, as an incredibly drunken dare as a student, I once ate dog food. (Don't judge me!) It doesn't make me a dog. Putting on a dress doesn't make me a woman.

Hamster, yes, it is rather telling that the transsexuals who have done the most to alter our bodies to help us live as happily as possible are usually much more aware of the limitations of that transition and the realities of our biology than the transgender ideology that argues you can think yourself into changing sex. Sadly we know you cannot do so with science let alone magic.

That may be because for us this is something part of our core so we are acutely aware of the accommodation. And our therapy has helped us live within those limitations.

Whereas transgender have no such reality checks and what they imagine is true is what they insist must be what others say is true.

Perhaps the difference between something based on a performance rather than a need to live some kind of stable life where what is real or not is your constant companion and you must assimilate this to reach any kind of normal.

Not make it go away by pretending it is not there and demabding others agree with you.

That is really only possible if you are not trying to live a normal existence but a path that depends on being validated.

Transphobia is perceived via this route. It is rarely actually there. For transgender people it is an inevitable self fulfilling prophecy that exists because they expect it to and have defined what it is.

Realism is the only way to stop seeing transphobia everywhere.

Woman I honestly don’t think deadnaming can be compared to maiden names etc. There are lots of people who change their first name for various reasons and do not want others to ever use their previous names and hate being reminded of them. This could be for reasons such as the name having a painful connotation or memory such as being teased for it as a child or sharing a name with a family member who has harmed them. I can also imagine some (not all) trans people having emotional connections to their previous names and do not desire them to be used. Comparing it to a maiden name is disingenuous. You don’t change your maiden name to get away from certain memories.

By the way, it’s great that there are transsexuals here giving their viewpoint. I really think there is scope for co-operation on this point. A stance where you want to outright deny medical transition to adults is just never going to be acceptable. If you have never had gender dysphoria, you would struggle to understand what may make people feel better. I have never had GD and I am happy to listen to those who have it as to what is right for them re medical care. Does it change their sex? No. Should children be permitted to transition? No. But an adult with mental capacity should be afforded treatment to help them deal with their GD, whatever form that takes.

an adult with mental capacity should be afforded treatment to help them deal with their GD, whatever form that takes

The transgender umbrella needs scrapped and we need to focus on true transsexualism - those with Gender Dysphoria. That focus should be in the form of mental health support and therapies and transition only as a last resort. As a previous poster stated you'd probably only be seeing 100 to 200 cases a year.

Transsexual people are the first to tell you that TWAW is nonsense and there is no such thing as "lady dick". They will be first to tell you self id is a disaster.

Yes but cant the vast majority of people under the trans umbrella don’t have a medical transition and certainly never have any surgery. Why focus on trying to restrict medical transition? Why not retain the focus on keeping medical intervention to over 18s and on ensuring that women retain single sex spaces? Quite frankly it has nothing to do with me whether an adult takes hormones. It really doesn’t. Plus you have people with GD on here who say that medical transition has helped them. I think leave it to doctors to discuss with their patients.

Lass and Hamster, thank you, I'm loving your posts. X

Just one small point, I'm sure there are many women who do actually change their maiden name (ugghh hate the maiden part) because of certain memories from their childhood and possibly abusive parents/family

Well, okPedro, those women might then object to being referred to by their previous names. Names have psychological meanings for some people. No matter where you sit on the self-ID debate, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand why some people feel sensitive about being reminded of former names that they associate with unhappiness. To innocently proclaim ‘well, I don’t mind people calling me by my maiden-name’ is just unhelpful.

Fascinating insight on the last couple of pages. Thank you for that.

I'm sure there are many women who do actually change their maiden name (ugghh hate the maiden part)

Then don't use the term. It added nothing to the point you were making.

I'm sure there are many women and some men who do actually change their birth name/given name/family name [all of those terms cover it] because of certain memories from their childhood and possibly abusive parents/family

Hamster, yes, it is rather telling that the transsexuals who have done the most to alter our bodies to help us live as happily as possible are usually much more aware of the limitations of that transition and the realities of our biology than the transgender ideology that argues you can think yourself into changing sex. Sadly we know you cannot do so with science let alone magic

Is this the case though?
Prominant activists such as Sarah Brown, Stephen Whittle, India Willoughby, Sue Pascoe etc would presumably have more in common (physically) with the TS you're describing.
THey have done a great deal both in terms of policy, law, public perceptions & influence etc to insist on the absolute priority of their gender identity over sex.
Sarah Brown (Stonewall / Lib Dems) insists that she is not only a woman but female. So too Sue Pascoe (Conservatives / Channel 4 / Mesmac)

Perhaps, but they are activists and most transsexuals, by default are not. That is part of the problem really.

There is not going to be unanimity within any group of people as you see on here. I said usually not always for that reason.

But there are as many transsexuals as the examples you cite out there on Twitter openly speaking similar things to what Hamster and I are saying here. And even more if you think about the ones who publicly supported recent letters in the Guardian and Times by Debbie and Miranda. Or who signed the petitions from artists and writers supporting women. Or the protest against Stonewall. Some signed all of those things.

So in terms of openly active there is a balance despite the huge disparity of numbers between transsexual and transgender populations.

The ones making the noise from both groups are a fraction of the half million TG let alone the 4910 TS. Most of whom never speak out openly and just get on with their lives.

There is a blog by some of them which seems in line with what Hamster and I are saying in here:

transsexualwomen1.blogspot.com/

It is the product of 14 of those TS with GRCs who are not identifying themselves in public and modest in number as most seem too scared of the repercussions on their family (as they are doing what most on here do - living family lives out there not campaigning).

I am pleasantly surprised how many different transsexuals have independently been peak transed by what the TG activists are saying and doing like ,many women have around the same time. It probably came as a surprise to many transsexuals as it did to women as few are part of any group structure or rights campaigners. Transsexuals were not asking any rights. T

This has been happening bit by bit for the last year or two on social media and sites like here. And most of them have huge incentives not to speak out because they are putting themselves in the middle and getting abuse from all sides. This includes threats to their jobs and of law suits for comments. I have seen both happen to them in recent weeks. Twitter is no friend to TS rational people who if we say what we say in here are called Nazis, traitors and worse.

Almost every week I see one of them quietly get back to their life and say they are too fearful of the consequences on their loved ones. It is unfair for many of them to put others in their lives into the midst of this mess. That is the risk taken by all who speak out against the mantra.

Perhaps, but they are activists and most transsexuals, by default are not. That is part of the problem really.

Presumably though they are activists and transsexuals?

They have substantive differences to those who like, Jess Bradley (for example) seems to have done little more than identify as a non-binary transwomen.

I have only listed a few who have had and have extra-ordinary influence over the last 10+ years. There will be many others.

I am not diminishing the the threats and abuse. I think any woman who has been aware of the agressive tactics of some activists is acutuely aware of this, having faced the same.

I don't think its accurate or fair to draw a correllation between the possible 'abuse' from both sides.

lassupthebrew

I've read the article you've linked, thank you.

Can I ask, within the definition of transsexual, it cites:

Here is the OED (Oxford English Dictionary) entry:

:- A person who has undergone treatment in order to acquire the physical characteristics of the opposite sex.

The Cambridge English dictionary is similar

:- Used to describe a person who has had medical treatment to change their sex.

So this includes any medical /surgical intervention:
Plastic facial surgery which is described as 'feminisation' eg nose job, chin, ear pinning?
Breast implants?

putting themselves in the middle and getting abuse from all sides

I am transsexual myself (the medically transitioning and diagnosed gender dysphoria kind!) and only recently stuck my head above the parapet because I was so anti self identification. The abuse I got was unbeleivable. I felt both sides gang up on me and nothing I could say was right. Everything was twisted to suit.

I agree with everything lass has said.

You absolutely cant put transsexual and transgender into the same pot.....they are very different things.

I do not personally know any of the people you named in your post, so I would only be able to take their word that they are TS, not TG. I do not know how many have had psychotherapy, or been medically diagnosed, or had any GRS or even if they have a GRC or not. Most activists do not from what I have read. Numbers who do are tiny and the ones who got them tend to be the ones who just needed the documentation to settle down into society without hassle. Or needed them to marry long term partners.

What I do notice is a difference between those who transition later in life and have lived and worked as men for long periods, often rising up the ladder that way and so interacted with women as men. Like Caitlyn Jenner.

I do think life experience inevitably is going to make a difference to how they approach things, TS or not. And I also see that many of the active older trans have been married to women and had children and this also is a very different lifestyle over many years to those who are what Blanchard calls homosexual transsexuals - basically those who only ever have had relationships with men and are married to (often by the way heterosexual) men.

I have noticed that TS who are in stable relationships with men often transitioned much younger than those who are not (Blanchard found that too) do tend to be less interested in activism than those who have lived and worked as men and have women as partners.

I am not reading anything negative into that. It may well just be different life experiences and personalities bringing a continuation into their TS existence. But there do not seem to be many TS activists (if any) who transitioned young and long ago and have only ever lived and worked as an adult as a woman and have only had relationships and even married men. They might exist in the activist community - I do not know - but they seem under represented if they are, because such people certainly do exist.

It is a shame that they are seemingly amongst the least visible because the ones I know are very supportive of women and nearly always opposed to self ID.

I do not personally know any of the people you named in your post, so I would only be able to take their word that they are TS, not TG. I do not know how many have had psychotherapy, or been medically diagnosed, or had any GRS or even if they have a GRC or not. Most activists do not from what I have read. Numbers who do are tiny and the ones who got them tend to be the ones who just needed the documentation to settle down into society without hassle. Or needed them to marry long term partners.

This article from 2013 provides a lot of relevent background, some of those I have mentioned are interviewed:
www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

Rowantrees, I do not know what specifically the dictionary defines as surgery, obviously.

The GRC does not insist on GRS. In the view of virtually every TS person who has had this that I have discussed this with - it should. We tend to think anyone not wanting this cannot have GD and GD is the supposed definition for what makes a TS not a TG.

In the past before the GRA almost everybody who was diagnosed through the long process had GRS. And it was a necessary factor in getting documentation changed by doctors as they only really diagnosed as such if there were medical grounds why GRS would not be advised. And hospital wards would locate you in female spaces on the basis of your physiology. In essence if you had retained your penis they would not put you in with women. I would imagine that policy might well have changed in today's very different society.

Most TS I know would support a GRC only if you have GRS rule unless strong medical reasons not to exist. But I doubt this would ever be allowed under sterilization rules.

This is not because TS think GRS = you change sex - but because they tend to believe you have to need it to be TS.

What I do notice is a difference between those who transition later in life and have lived and worked as men for long periods, often rising up the ladder that way and so interacted with women as men. Like Caitlyn Jenner.

Caitlin Jenner has had medical treatment though (re the article you linked with definition)

Debbie Hayton talked movingly on the radio last week about how she was glad she didn't transition earlier in life so she could father her children.

I'm genuinely trying to understand what is meant.

Rowantrees, I do not know what specifically the dictionary defines as surgery, obviously.

You misunderstand, I read the article you recommended and am asking the question based on it, not the dictionary definitions it used.

It seems key to talk of 'meaningful transition' but I don't understand what this means.