Why my transgender son dosent want self ID

[justanothetnamechange]

HI all, so I've been wanting to make this post for a while but I hire honest Ive been scared to but tonight I'm going for it.
I'm a regular user but have obviously name changed for this.
So I frequent this board often but have never posted before, I am very much for women's rights- as many of us are!! My world turned upside down 6 years ago when my son started having conversations with with us reguarding his gender identity, tbh to begin with I constantly shot him down, but realised that there was no harm in changing his prounouns and name if that what makes him comfortable, although this choice toke a couple years and a lot of arguments! We didn't rush into anything, at school he used disabled toilets and he didn't do PE anyway as it was extra catch up. But wasn't going to do medication at this stage- he could make this choice as an adult if that's what he wanted. He went under CAMHS. That brings us to 2018 he is know 18 years old so it's all very much his choice. He is soon to be assed for testosterone.
I don't want this post to be to much about his journey and please don't go on about how he will never be biologically a man, he knows this he is a proud trans man. This is how self ID would ruin that.
it brings another side of the argument that people might not have always thought about.
My son has gone through a lot of challenges and mile stones to be where he is today they have been emotional.
He feels self ID would take away these milestones.
He recently got his passport through saying male, to do this we had to get two doctors reports and a MH report and proth he was living as his gender. When it came through he cried, celebrated and went for a drink.
He was recently allowed to play for a male football team to do this he needed club approval, a doctors report party and proth he was going to medically transition. He needed to be present for a pane. He just played his first game it was celebrated and a good game to watch.
He works as a man and is treated as a man. But it took a lot of battles.
He is soon to apply for a GRC something he feels is the final step for social transition.
But when he tells people he is transgender he feels people accept him more when he says he's had to go through this. He feels genuine. He under stands sex segregation and respects men's boundary's. He only changes in the male changing room at football for example because they had a meeting about it and everyone said it was fine and even then he come in at the end when everyone's changed to take part in the talks etc.
He doesn't like the idea that someone could say I'm trans one day and get all the rights he's fort for. He doesn't like the idea that people who don't understand transition will come into sex segregated spaces. He doesn't like that he won't feel his long struggles will be looked on in the same way as they were before. This one may sound Selfish- He Dosent like that already stressed resources will become even more stressed as boundary's to be accepted will weaken. He wants to be accepted and knows he won't by everyone but in his opinion it happens more when he has that M in his passport and plus for his local team and when everyone can do this it's not as real. His struggles aren't as real. His battles aren't as real. His tears aren't as real. He feels even more invalidated. when he was 17 we talked about the GRC and he said how happy he'd feel when it came through and how he would have a weight lifted from his shoulders know someone wants to take away from this.
I hope this was right to post and makes sense!!
If anyone has any questions my son and me are happy to try and answer them.
I'm going to go put my hard hat on and hide in a corner just in case!

OP thank you so much for posting.

"If anyone has any questions my son and me are happy to try and answer them."

Did your child always identify as a boy or is this something that cane about at puberty?

You are right Tallulah, but there is also the issue of young adults taking such risks knowingly, because - right or wrong - they feel it is worth it. When I started my chemistry studies at University at 18, I and my colleagues were told in no uncertain terms that the life expectancy for the profession was markedly lower than average (for that then old generation it was 50 I believe), and risks for all kinds of accidents were colorfully described to us, including real life stories of blind and maimed ex-colleagues of the professors who held that pep-talk. It did not matter to me and my peers.

Heck, cat stevens wrote a song about this (father and son) and Evita Perón sang about it (well, in the musical, at least ).

(While we are on the topic of smoking, isn't public smoking outlawed in the UK?)
You what? So people can't smoke in the street?

Agree deepwatersolo. There's a debate to be had about what age is appropriate for taking decisions that will affect ones whole life. But there's no justification whatsoever for encouraging people of any age to embark on courses of medication which have serious and irreversible effects without ensuring that they are as informed as possible about risks and long-term outcomes.

Can someone post me a link of when your breasts grow back after a mastectomy?

This is true.

Nor can an amputated leg, removed because of arterial disease caused by smoking, grow back either.

To be fair, weet, the smoker’s amputated leg is a bug, while the transman‘s amputated breasts are the feature.

weetabix you have touched in one truth which is that young people can be extremely cavalier about their health - after all, most people don’t take up smoking in their 30s or 40s, do they? They’re in their teens or early 20s.

But the government and NHS don’t promote smoking, in fact quite the opposite. So why advocate vigorously against one highly damaging course of action in young people but not another? Is the trans lobby the modern equivalent of the tobacco lobby? Will Mermaids be sponsoring F1 teams soon?

(My mother has terminal lung cancer. She was a heavy smoker for many years, though have up about 15 years before she was diagnosed. Not once has any HCP blamed her smoking for it. In fact, other than noting that she was a smoker, smoking hasn’t been mentioned at all. So that’s interesting that you’ve had 3 family members have doctors directly attribute their lung cancer to smoking.)

RiverTam

I'm sorry to hear about your mum. If you were to ask the drs about smoking though I think they would attribute the cancer to it. That's what happened with us. The drs didn't volunteer the info, we asked "was this caused by smoking 20 years ago?"

You are right that the NHS does not promote smoking.

My point is the judgemental "adults should not be allowed to make decisions that might be harmful" attitudes on here. I am sure that most, if not all of us, do things that are injurious to our health and would also take great exception to other people saying that we weren't sufficiently mature to take those decisions.

Thanks. My mum did say ‘well, I was a smoker for x years’ and they just said ‘we’re not about the past’ and that was that. And I do know someone that died of lung cancer who’d never smoked in her life. But I daresay that’s rare.

Why is an 18 year old an adult and a 17 year old not? In terms of maturity there’s nothing between them, it’s an aribtrary legal thing. But the world is full of people with regrets about what they did at 18. But most of them have not done anything as permanently damaging in so many ways as medically transitioning.

It’s an absolute monstrous scandal and damn right I’m going to judge, I’m going to judge each and every adult who lets down a vulnerable child or young adult. And I hope they all get sued. I’m not including the OP because she sounds like she hasn’t advocated any of this (though I question that social transitioning, names and pronouns, isn’t simply opening the gates to the rest of it, as well as drawing other people into the situation).

And yes, of course I think those who take up smoking in their teens and became addicted and can’t stop etc etc were young and stupid and shouldn’t have done that and weren’t sufficiently mature.

I’m not sure I understand your point at all.

I’m not sure I understand your point at all.

My point is I am quite sure that you, as an adult, do things that other adults would consider maybe unhealthy or damaging or unsafe. I am also sure that you wouldn't be too impressed if those adults started telling you that you can't do what you want to do or judge you for doing it.

You say you want people to be sued. I daresay that for those who transitioning has been successful they would sue if they had been stopped. The key is to identify those for whom it will be the right decision and those it won't.

Oh, right. No, I don’t really have an issue with that kind of thing. Other people’s points of view are always useful, and it’s good to be forced to look at yourself honestly.

I think that in fact or would be a sign of immaturity to get all hufty. I know I would have when I was younger!

And successful is highly subjective. I wonder how many who might consider it a success in their teens or 20s will feel quite the same way in their 30s and 40s. I think there will be, rightly, an absolute slew of court cases once people start hitting their 30s and realise exactly what it means to be sterile.

You say you want people to be sued. I daresay that for those who transitioning has been successful they would sue if they had been stopped. The key is to identify those for whom it will be the right decision and those it won't.

There is nobody this is right for, that is the point. Sex cannot be changed. It is perfectly acceptable for there to be masculine women and effeminate men, that was going just fine until this shady cultish movement began pushing medicalisation of preference and dismantling safeguarding. Transactivism is badly in need of transparency, sociological examination, ethical projection and study and a truck load of rock solid scientific study and evidence based evaluation. I have not seen one iota of fact in any of this dogma.

I think that in fact or would be a sign of immaturity to get all hufty. I know I would have when I was younger!

Hhhmmm.

And successful is highly subjective. I wonder how many who might consider it a success in their teens or 20s will feel quite the same way in their 30s and 40s.

This needs to investigated with proper studies that measure the impact. There are people who are glad that they have transitioned and are happy in their lives.

It's wrong to say that this never works and that every person who transitions will inevitably regret it.

In fact, I think the opposite is true - that there are some people who have resisted transitioning until much later in life and regret not having done it earlier and bitterly regret the extra upset caused to spouses or children.

There is nobody this is right for

And that is clearly not true. There are trans women who post on MN for whom transitioning was right.

It is perfectly acceptable for there to be masculine women and effeminate men,

Of course it is. If they are happy then that's perfect for them. But then there are others who aren't happy being a masculine woman or a feminine man. Why can't they be allowed to transition? Because you say so?

I agree with wheet

I think there desperately needs to be more studies into this so we can do proper impact assessments. At the minute we just don't know.

I can see why a transman would want T, the difference it makes aesthetically is incredible, and the urge to just pass must be phenomenal.

I do think that the risks aren't properly spoken about though as I know when I spoke to my friend who is transitioning (they are in there mid thirties and incredibly intelligent, we arent talking about a teenager here) and I mentioned fertility they said, ' oh i don't know, I haven't asked'.

They shouldn't have to ASK!

Firstly who defines "unnecessary"? For someone with GD the drugs are very much necessary. Would you say the same thing about anxiety drugs and drugs for depression ? Clearly you dont understand GD; telling a patient with GD they cant have the medication is in some cases akin to telling a depressed patient to "pull yourself together".

Thank you but my statement was not uncalled for. It was grounded in reality. I clearly touched a nerve.

Yes in an extremely small number of cases the drugs might be necessary as far as someone's mental health goes. I have every sympathy for those people. The surgery is still 'unnecessary' in the sense it is not physically needed and the surgeon is mutilating the patient and doing physical harm, despite having signed an oath not to. There are many potential negative consequences physically speaking and some don't reveal themselves for years. Is every surgery being carried out now (particularly in the States) happening on those very rare patients with genuine, severe gender dysphoria? I'd bet everything I own that's a no. Surgery is very profitable.

I have some particular life experiences that many don't. I have had many hospital stays and surgeries behind me. It's very very easy to say at 15/20/25 that you really really want to make a particular change to your life and that you don't care that you might suffer years down the line because old age feels very far away. But when you are stuck in a hospital bed experiencing severe pain or complications you realise how little the mind can comprehend the reality of that before actually experiencing it. I think smoking is a similar thing - many people do kid themselves it's fun and they don't care about the risks. They bloody do care when they meet reality. And as someone else said at least you can stop smoking and reverse the damage.

And don't give me that 'where is your evidence?' Go and talk to any young woman who has had a hysterectomy and see the reality of how their life has changed. It is more likely that these kids will experience negative physical consequences than not if they start taking T and having surgery. Where is the peer reviewed research exploring the actuall reality of the harm they might do? Which can give them an accurate forecast of what they face. tumbleweed They are guinea pigs.

My point is the judgemental "adults should not be allowed to make decisions that might be harmful" attitudes on here. I am sure that most, if not all of us, do things that are injurious to our health and would also take great exception to other people saying that we weren't sufficiently mature to take those decisions.

Weetabix Have you seen this story?
www.smh.com.au/national/western-australia/after-17-years-as-a-woman-this-man-has-had-enough-20181207-p50kyo.html

He transitioned at 35 following a relationship breakdown - so not a child. But he thinks he wasn't given enough psychological help - only affirmation. It's not always just about maturity.

He said he had never received specialist medical advice or unbiased counselling before agreeing to hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery.

Thread here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3448289-Male-detransitioner-AU

Clearly you dont understand GD; telling a patient with GD they cant have the medication is in some cases akin to telling a depressed patient to "pull yourself together".

It is more akin to telling a depressed patient that they'll not be allowed to self-harm or drink alcohol to deal with the depression, and ought to stick to therapy and antidepressants.

People with anorexia often wrongly believe that they are fat. People with depression often wrongly believe that their lives are horrible and worthless and no one would miss them if they committed suicide. We don't allow them to act on the beliefs caused by their psychological problems.

Hell, we don't even allow people who feel like one of their limbs doesn't belong to them to get rid of it, if said limb is an arm or leg. Those people are told to stick to psychotherapy and medication, regardless of how much they suffer.

But if it is the breasts or the penis someone believes don't belong to their body, we allow them to remove those. Instead of antidepressants or other psychiatric medication, they are given cross-sex hormones. Cross sex hormones and puberty blockers are not psychiatric medication, in case that is unclear.

Why do people with gender dysphoria get a special treatment, while we force feed women with anorexia instead of letting them make their own decisions they are entitled to as adults? Why don't we let depressed patients commit suicide? They are convinced it is the best for them, but we don't let them do it.

Not saying it is wrong to give people with gender dysphoria hormones.

Just wondering why we don't apply the same logic to all people who in some way feel dysphoric about their lives and/or their bodies.

OldCrone

But 1 person, as sad as that is for them, isn't every transsexual person.

Nowhere in medicine do you take 1 patient's experience and then apply it to everyone - 1 person had an anaphylactic reaction to penicillin so ban penicillin, 1 patient died from complications of bypass surgery so stop doing it...

Clearly what is needed is proper peer reviewed studies into the causes of dysphoria, the treatment, short term and long term effects, not just ad hoc treatment by clinicians, some with much more experience than others.

You can't just use the experience of a number of people who may have transitioned and then regretted it. Who knows how many have transitioned and are happy? As with most things the fact is that those who suffer side effects or are unhappy are likely to report it than those who are just living their lives.

BettyDuMonde

"I wonder if some young women are transitioning to get away from the sexual nightmare porn is forcing upon them - wouldn't blame them! Imagine seeing some of the normalised violent sex out there on the internet these days and realising that's what's in store for you

Y’know how women (all over the world, probably) invent fake boyfriends and husbands to make creepy dudes fuck off and leave them alone? Because simply saying you aren’t interested is interpreted as a challenge or makes you a target of abuse?

Sometimes I watch the polite, deferential young transmen on YouTube and can’t help but think they’ve taken it a step further and have actually become their own fake boyfriend in order to more efficiently ward off the creepy dudes.

Wearing a ‘wedding’ band was as far as my generation went."

That is such a brilliant post. I hope you do not mind my quoting it all.

As a young woman I traveled in Indonesia. I had never had a pretend boyfriend before but after encountering a lot of unwanted attention, including an attempt to stop me leaving a bus, I went straight into a shop and bought a ring. As a feminist I did not like relying on a pretend husband but in the end if was just easier!

I really think you are onto something BettyDuMonde, I've thought it for a while but not really had the words to put it into.

What we need is to not give hormone blockers/hormones to young people unless they have had extensive therapy and until they know all the risks and the reality that these things might not "cure" their gender dysphoria.

Italiangreyhound me and my best friend used to pretend to be lesbian's to get the creeps to leave us alone although this stopped working when the creeps actually got turned on and asked us to kiss for their sexual gratification..

RiverTam I am sorry to hear about your mum.

Cross sex hormones come with risks. But young girls are watching videos where other females/trans men, slightly older than themselves, are talking about how good they look and feel on 'T'.

Decisions about these drugs are being made by people who are still very young, even if they cannot get their hands on the drugs for a number of years.

Is there research into the dangers of these drugs?
Is there research into other approaches to gender dysphoria?

I really do not think it is cruel to ask these questions. Even if I have every sympathy for the OP since the decisions are not being made by her but by her child.

I also wonder if the OP's child is already being identified as a boy, why the need for further treatment? I feel gender dysphoria may be masking other issues in some people and the need to transition/take drugs etc is all part of escaping something, but what if you do all that and the 'thing' 'feeling' follows you?