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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why my transgender son dosent want self ID

258 replies

justanothetnamechange · 10/12/2018 21:16

HI all, so I've been wanting to make this post for a while but I hire honest Ive been scared to but tonight I'm going for it.
I'm a regular user but have obviously name changed for this.
So I frequent this board often but have never posted before, I am very much for women's rights- as many of us are!! My world turned upside down 6 years ago when my son started having conversations with with us reguarding his gender identity, tbh to begin with I constantly shot him down, but realised that there was no harm in changing his prounouns and name if that what makes him comfortable, although this choice toke a couple years and a lot of arguments! We didn't rush into anything, at school he used disabled toilets and he didn't do PE anyway as it was extra catch up. But wasn't going to do medication at this stage- he could make this choice as an adult if that's what he wanted. He went under CAMHS. That brings us to 2018 he is know 18 years old so it's all very much his choice. He is soon to be assed for testosterone.
I don't want this post to be to much about his journey and please don't go on about how he will never be biologically a man, he knows this he is a proud trans man. This is how self ID would ruin that.
it brings another side of the argument that people might not have always thought about.
My son has gone through a lot of challenges and mile stones to be where he is today they have been emotional.
He feels self ID would take away these milestones.
He recently got his passport through saying male, to do this we had to get two doctors reports and a MH report and proth he was living as his gender. When it came through he cried, celebrated and went for a drink. Wink
He was recently allowed to play for a male football team to do this he needed club approval, a doctors report party and proth he was going to medically transition. He needed to be present for a pane. He just played his first game it was celebrated and a good game to watch.
He works as a man and is treated as a man. But it took a lot of battles.
He is soon to apply for a GRC something he feels is the final step for social transition.
But when he tells people he is transgender he feels people accept him more when he says he's had to go through this. He feels genuine. He under stands sex segregation and respects men's boundary's. He only changes in the male changing room at football for example because they had a meeting about it and everyone said it was fine and even then he come in at the end when everyone's changed to take part in the talks etc.
He doesn't like the idea that someone could say I'm trans one day and get all the rights he's fort for. He doesn't like the idea that people who don't understand transition will come into sex segregated spaces. He doesn't like that he won't feel his long struggles will be looked on in the same way as they were before. This one may sound Selfish- He Dosent like that already stressed resources will become even more stressed as boundary's to be accepted will weaken. He wants to be accepted and knows he won't by everyone but in his opinion it happens more when he has that M in his passport and plus for his local team and when everyone can do this it's not as real. His struggles aren't as real. His battles aren't as real. His tears aren't as real. He feels even more invalidated. when he was 17 we talked about the GRC and he said how happy he'd feel when it came through and how he would have a weight lifted from his shoulders know someone wants to take away from this.
I hope this was right to post and makes sense!!
If anyone has any questions my son and me are happy to try and answer them.
I'm going to go put my hard hat on and hide in a corner just in case!

OP posts:
Calvinsmam · 11/12/2018 10:33

I really don't understand why this means someone has to take harmful medication and probably have major surgery.

Because they have gender dysphoria and are distressed by their bodies.

OP’s son understands they are not Male, he is ok with sex segregation, he is not having any medical intervention until he is 18 (or possibly ever).

Obviously in an ideal world we would dismantle the patriarchy and gender roles and everyone would feel ok with their sexed bodies but while we live in this one people need to negotiate how to make themselves a life they can stand.

Starkstaring · 11/12/2018 11:15

To get a passport in the new gender, all my 19 year old had to do was get a letter from the GP. No diagnosis of gender dysphoria needed, nor any proof of living in the opposite gender.

Why should all these non-confirming people have to modify their bodies? If we were a genuinely tolerant society, we could acknowledge that gender and sex are 2 separate things - social and biological - then divide human beings into 2 sexes only when absolutely necessary (health, sport and sex). More than happy to use any pronoun anyone wants at any time if it saves another human being feeling they have to medically alter themselves with all the attendant risks.

deepwatersolo · 11/12/2018 11:44

If we were a genuinely tolerant society, we could acknowledge that gender and sex are 2 separate things - social and biological - then divide human beings into 2 sexes only when absolutely necessary (health, sport and sex).

For one, obviously there are very different views about when separating by sex is absolutely neccessary, and then: why should I even accept the existence of this construct named gender? It is nothing but a prescription of how to behave and what to wear. If people can choose their gender marker in the passport just like that, it is aburd that I can't reject it alltogether and need to pick one. It is like asking a slave which color they prefer for their chain.

OldCrone · 11/12/2018 11:54

Because they have gender dysphoria and are distressed by their bodies.

Obviously in an ideal world we would dismantle the patriarchy and gender roles and everyone would feel ok with their sexed bodies

Aren't these two separate issues? Sex dysphoria and gender dysphoria?

Sex dysphoria is feeling your body is wrong in itself. That you have the wrong body parts. Similar to those people who feel one of their limbs doesn't belong to them. 'Distressed by their bodies' as you describe it.

Gender dysphoria is what you describe in your last paragraph. A feeling that society won't accept them, because of gender roles.

Sex dysphoria and gender dysphoria are two different conditions, with different solutions. Sex dysphoria, even after extensive counselling, may be impossible to cure and transition may be the only effective treatment.

The best treatment for gender dysphoria is for society to become more tolerant of gender non-conformity and diversity.

Calvinsmam · 11/12/2018 11:58

Ok fine.

Because they have sex dysphoria and are distressed with their bodies.

cantgetridofthekids · 11/12/2018 12:20

when he tells people he is transgender

From your description though your son clearly isnt transgender - he is transsexual. Would it not be better to identify as transsexual rather than the new modern transgender agenda and everything it represents ?

cantgetridofthekids · 11/12/2018 12:24

people can choose their gender marker in the passport just like that,

There is a bit of a mess to be honest over how easy or not it is to change gender markers....

DVLA - you just ask. No evidence at all.

Passport - one letter from a doctor stating you intend to live as the opposite sex, no diagnosis needed

NHS Records - GP approval but no specific diagnosis

Inland Revenue - Full GRC requring 2 diagnoses of GD and 2 years living as the opposite sex.

Its all very inconsistent. Of course if self ID comes in thats all irrelavant!

gendercritter · 11/12/2018 12:27

I feel for you op. I'm sure you just want your child to be happy. Knowing they are going to take unnecessary drugs and potentially end up with some horrible complications perhaps a decade down the line must be absolutely terrifying. I wish there was a much easier way of sparing all these kids that. They deserve so much better.

cantgetridofthekids · 11/12/2018 12:33

Knowing they are going to take unnecessary drugs and potentially end up with some horrible complications perhaps a decade down the line must be absolutely terrifying.

Your statement is uncalled for.

Firstly who defines "unnecessary"? For someone with GD the drugs are very much necessary. Would you say the same thing about anxiety drugs and drugs for depression ? Clearly you dont understand GD; telling a patient with GD they cant have the medication is in some cases akin to telling a depressed patient to "pull yourself together".

Secondly this whole thing about complications is a falacy. Patients are very closely monitored and whilst there can be a small increased risk depending on medication choice the reality is than its an acceptable level of risk given the alternative. In Male to Female patients on patch based HRT there are actually proven health benefits!

Pointing out to a mother that they should be terrified about "horrible complications" is not good.

LangCleg · 11/12/2018 12:44

Secondly this whole thing about complications is a falacy.

Evidence base, please. Tip: NHS GIDS for adolescents say the quality of evidence for interventions in young people is low or very low.

Lettera · 11/12/2018 13:01

Can anyone (whether from personal experience or not) explain to me what it means to 'live as the opposite sex (or gender)' in the context of getting a new passport, driving licence or GRC?

cantgetridofthekids · 11/12/2018 13:03

perhaps gendercritter can produce evidence for their statement as well?

cantgetridofthekids · 11/12/2018 13:08

lettera.....

living as the opposite sex essentially is changing your name and choosing an appearance that one would associate with the opposite sex

Datun · 11/12/2018 13:27

Someone who is a scientist might be able to translate this:

Conclusions
A large body of literature suggests an atrophic effect of long-term androgen therapy in FtM individuals treated with testosterone. Our data provide evidence that testosterone administration produces active endometrial and myometrial changes in women of reproductive age undergoing androgen therapy during the course of the process leading to sex reassignment surgery. This can be the result of the association of ovarian changes, responsible for a continuous, albeit at low concentration, estrogen production, leading to androgen upregulation in the myometrial expression of androgen receptors. The correlation between long-term androgen administration and uterine histological and receptor changes is scarce, and more studies are needed in order to establish the effect of such therapy on uterine tissues. This is extremely important in those patients requiring cross-sex hormone therapy for gender dysphoria without sex reassignment surgery, who may deserve surveillance due to the risk of endometrial degenerative changes due the apparent proliferative activity induced by androgen therapy.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1028455916301280

FairytaleOfWigan · 11/12/2018 13:29

I don’t understand how changing a name and clothes makes me ( a woman ) into a man. I already have a unisex name and only wear trousers. Doesn’t that mean I’m already a man and only have to change the Male/ female part of my legal documents?

It’s nonsense.

OldCrone · 11/12/2018 13:30

Pointing out to a mother that they should be terrified about "horrible complications" is not good.

Pointing out to a mother that they should be realistic about "horrible complications" is the right thing to do.

We shouldn't pretend that interfering with the endocrine system is risk free.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 11/12/2018 13:30

Fortunately OP's son isn't considering puberty blockers which I predict will be the source of most of the lawsuits in years to come.

Much more principled research on the long-term effects of testosterone on the female system needs to be done before we will know what the risks really are. But there is some anecdotal evidence of complications from T. Here is a relevant thread:

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1071770722958229504.html

OldCrone · 11/12/2018 13:34

living as the opposite sex essentially is changing your name and choosing an appearance that one would associate with the opposite sex

Are we still living in the 19th century?

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 11/12/2018 13:39

The abstract upthread basically says that taking t long-term is likely to have effects on tissues and receptors in the female reproductive system, so in cases where people aren't having a hysterectomy anyway they need to be monitored for problematic changes including uterus atrophy and cancer risk. Also that we don't know enough about this and need more research.

Datun · 11/12/2018 13:41

From that twitter link

A lengthy thread on a hitherto little known medical consequence of young women being prescribed testosterone, namely severe long-lasting pain during and after orgasm that can apparently only be alleviated by a hysterectomy.

Two high profile transmen started talking about it, and now it's becoming more widely known.

Can you imagine if men were prevented from having an orgasm due to terrible pain?

SlowlyShrinking · 11/12/2018 13:43

That’s a very worrying thread, Tallulah and also more confirmation that you can’t identify out of female biology

Datun · 11/12/2018 13:50

So just having a hysterectomy bring on the menopause? And all the rest of it, fragile bones, etc?

Datun · 11/12/2018 13:50

*does, not just

LassWiADelicateAir · 11/12/2018 13:53

Radical feminism doesn't promote negativity about being female. How on earth do you come up with that conclusion?

Bit of a derail but from the way being a girl and a woman is portrayed on this forum. The idea for example that self- loathing of one's body as a teenager is normal and natural. The constant negativity and exaggeration of how awful being female is.

Datun · 11/12/2018 13:56

lass interesting take. So why do you think young women are transitioning in their droves?

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