Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

School trans inclusive policy

181 replies

FlawedAmazon · 10/12/2018 20:20

I know this is a bit of a long shot, but I need to get hold of some information regarding the allowing of boys that identify as girls into girls changing rooms.

As far as I remember, the wording mentioned that girls who felt uncomfortable about the arrangement, were 'encouraged' to choose a different activity.

I think it was schools that came under the remit of Brighton that received it. I'd be very grateful for any information.

Sorry for being so vague.

OP posts:
KayM2 · 10/12/2018 20:38

It is a very good question. I'm assuming ,as a former teacher, that no male bodied trans-identified girl would be allowed in the showers with girls, or undressed around them. I know that many people assume otherwise. Some newspapers have.
Taking part in lessons ( eg netball, etc) with the girls, though, fair enough. You'd think. So physical " extra" changing spaces , and supervision, would needed to enable a trans-identified girl to be able to take part in PE with girls.

So I am waiting, like anyone else, for examples of actual, nuts and bolts practical arrangements. I would go ape shit of my daughter had been in the showers with a trans person with their bits.

We need a head of PE in a decently run school that has grappled with this don't we? Where is a PE teacher, when you need one?

Teaching Maths, according to the Times the other day.

MrsKCastle · 10/12/2018 20:52

There is the All sorts trans guidance which has been used in some schools.

LangCleg · 10/12/2018 20:52

I'm assuming ,as a former teacher, that no male bodied trans-identified girl would be allowed in the showers with girls, or undressed around them. I know that many people assume otherwise. Some newspapers have.

And yet again, you imply scaremongering, Kay. This is not appropriate.

FlawedAmazon · 10/12/2018 20:55

Thanks LangCleg I'll have a read.

It's to do with my granddaughter's school so need to make sure I'm armed with all the facts.

OP posts:
Birdsfoottrefoil · 10/12/2018 20:57

Kay a male teacher lost his job for refusing to supervise a female student (who identified as male) in the boys showers.

LangCleg · 10/12/2018 21:08

FlawedAmazon - do as much research as you can and be prepared for fobbing-off responses. When a mother on Twitter complained to MP Stella Creasy about her 11-year-old daughter being exposed to a classmate masturbating their penis in the changing rooms at school due to a trans inclusion policy, Stella said it wasn't a trans issue but a peer on peer assault issue.

FlawedAmazon · 10/12/2018 21:10

I remember that story Birdsfoottrefoil

A teacher in America lost his job the other day for misgendering a pupil. Absolutely crazy.

OP posts:
KayM2 · 10/12/2018 21:30

There is wriggle room under the section on changing rooms. And it does not suggest that pupils who object should choose another activity. In practice, as it says that arrangements should be discussed with the pupil, a wise school will suggest that the pupil might wish to change in the next, but gender appropriate , room/ space, or in the teacher's changing rooms. or not enter the changing rooms till the " bottom half"was sorted, in a single cubicle loo. There
are always ways.

The key here may be what the guidance says, about " some other pupils may" feel uncomfortable", Those words allow the school to school to suggest,and arrange, a solution, as the other pupils have needs too.

The school managers do not want parents and press deluging the school. Nor governors . So it is in everybody's interest to sort something out with sensitivity.

A not dissimilar situation, in practical terms, occurred in a "unit" I ran attached to a West London secondary school . Integration was the aim, and that meant in games lessons. But some of the pupils had ( forgive me if I give no details) very unusual physical features under their clothes. I can' say more, but tbh not all my staff were comfy with what they were dealing with; it could have been traumatic for other pupils. So our job was to fix it so the boy or girl " took part " in the session with their peers. I'd like to think that those few who did not have , lets say, CP ,but something more visually challenging
, were able to be part of their peer group, for games. Even though they did not actually undress in front of them. Quite. These things need resources, extra supervision, careful use of watches and doors...

Cases such as teachers being dismissed over this may not be telling the full story. It is often the case . It nay be that thatteacher would not follow the school's guidelines.

VickyEadie · 10/12/2018 22:23

Taking part in lessons ( eg netball, etc) with the girls, though, fair enough.

"Fair" enough? How about if that pupil with a male body takes the place in a school team of a girl? Or enters the school sports 800m and beats the girls? Is that "fair enough"?

What if that experience puts off girls from furthering their participation in sports, because - from their point of view - they feel they can't win against pupils they see as boys?

Should this "fair enough" policy apply to (say) athletics clubs? Should they have to allow boys who identify as girls compete against the girls? I can give you statistics to show how girls fare in athletics against boys at national level from as young as 11 if you like - just to show you how this kind of policy is going to end girls' participation in their own sports.

KayM2 · 10/12/2018 22:38

Well, the policies you mention are currently not in place in competitive sport. The numbers of trans kids, though amazingly and oddly high, would still make a boy winning the girl's 800 a rare thing.

But, I'm with you on the main point. I was a club athlete ( couldn't do any games properly, but could run) and one of my unforgettable experiences in my 2 years in mainstream education was my junior girls winning the district X country. We had 3 of the first 4 home. There was only me, so they trained with the boys. I would have been unwilling then, and now, to have a male bodied trans identified girl beat any of those marvellous girls. One went on to junior international. But while I was there she could not quite beat the best of the boys over a mile. Not quite. I'd have been mortified, and she would have KNOWN she was 1st girl home.

I'm not convinced that it happens often that a trans -identified boy competing as a female wins a " formal" girls race. On what grounds would they be eligible for the Districts or the County?

VickyEadie · 10/12/2018 22:44

On what grounds would they be eligible for the Districts or the County?

It's about what will happen if this slow drip-drip of 'fair enough' policies of schools, then clubs, then (and we're already seeing it around the world with adult sports) a range of sports bodies allow men who identify as women to compete against women, isn't it?

It's saying "fair enough" that's the thin end of the wedge - Allsorts and the like have already established 'guidance' as policy in some UK schools that tells staff they 'must' allow boys who identify as girls to compete and play sports with the girls.

The numbers of trans kids, though amazingly and oddly high, would still make a boy winning the girl's 800 a rare thing.

I can fetch out the Power of Ten stats I posted up a few months ago, showing that at U13 in athletics the girls' best times nationally don't even equal the boys who rank as low as in the 50s and 60s if you like - but you could have a look a those for yourself.

VickyEadie · 10/12/2018 22:54

But here you go - U13 800m national best ever times:

girls: 2.13.87
boys: 2.04.1

Power of Ten results only go to the 31st boy for U13 - he ran 2.11.67, so still more than 2 seconds faster than the fastest ever girl.

U15 800m national best ever times:

girls: 2.06.22
boys: 1.53.1

Power of Ten results for U15 only go as far as the 57th boy, who ran 1.58.83. I wonder how far down the rankings we'd have to go to get the boy who ran the time equal to the fastest ever girl?

As you see, Kay, your notion that we wouldn't get a transgirl beating the girls doesn't hold water...

KayM2 · 10/12/2018 22:54

No, fair enough about the times. I agree.

Did you see the relay X Country today? worked out well; women 2nd and 4th legs. NOT males v females on any leg.

There can be oddnesses, ( our junior girls record for 800 was lower than the intermediates. But my lot will have soon changed that! )

But in the UK; please tell me, are trans girls taking part in competitive , award carrying athletics? Because if there are I will hold a bloody placard.

KayM2 · 10/12/2018 22:58

No Vicky;' I really ., really did not say that a transgirl would not beat the girls .That would be fatuous, and I was once a club athlete. )(Colchester.I REALLY didn't, and if it looks like I did, I apologise for clumsy unedited posting. I'll look back.

VickyEadie · 10/12/2018 22:58

But in the UK; please tell me, are trans girls taking part in competitive , award carrying athletics? Because if there are I will hold a bloody placard.

See my earlier comment about policies telling UK schools to allow boys who identify as girls to play sports with girls already being used in some UK schools.

Drip, drip, drip...

GColdtimer · 10/12/2018 22:59

OP is there a trans policy in place at your school? I would first search the website to see if they have one in place. If they do it's likely to be based on the all sorts pack. If that's the case you need to ask what risk assessment has been done on the policy implementation and ask to see governors minutes where they discussed it. I bet they will not have carried out any risk or impact assessment. Remind them of the need to provide single sex facilities. A meeting is the best way. Am going through this currently so happy to help.

GColdtimer · 10/12/2018 23:02

Kay British gymnastics recently changed their policy to allow trans girls to compete against girls. And to shower, change and share dorms with them too. The wording suggests if the girl doesn't like it they can go elsewhere. There is a thread on here about it started by me if you want to search.

KayM2 · 10/12/2018 23:04

Ah; I see what you mean; I said that a transgirl winning a girls 800 would be a rare thing. That is because transgirls are rare, and unless they were reasonably good at running in the first place, they
would not beat the best of the girls over two laps. But if they WERE good runners, they might well beat "better" girls. which would be appalling, and I am dead against it.

If it happens , in the UK. Sorry, I see where we misunderstood each other.

FairytaleOfWigan · 10/12/2018 23:09

There is wriggle room under the section on changing rooms..... a wise school will suggest that the pupil might wish to change in the next, but gender appropriate , room/ space, or in the teacher's changing rooms. or not enter the changing rooms till the " bottom half"was sorted, in a single cubicle loo

Can I just check that I understand your suggestion ? The school would suggest to a trans girl that she changed her underwear / shorts in the cubicle and then she would be free to enter the communal shower/ changing area where XX girls were naked or in their underwear. Is that correct ?

If so, how does that impact on all the XX girls ? What, for example, about girls from some faith groups ? Or those with various SN? Eg anxiety disorder, ASD,

Remember that sex , disability and ethnicity are protected characteristics under the Equality act and the school need to do an impact assessment .

And finally, if you believe that trans girls are the same as other girls, how do you justify asking one to change in the cubicle?

LangCleg · 10/12/2018 23:15

Well, OP, at least you've had a demonstration of the slipperiness you're likely to encounter at the school!

KayM2 · 10/12/2018 23:33

Fairytale of W; no, I am not suggesting that. Why would I be, when I am vocal in protecting women and girls from fear and danger?

I'm suggesting ( and I am 20 years retired from senior management in education, that the document we were linked to ( from Brighton, I believe) seems to me, on one reading, to give ample scope for sensitive handling of potentially difficult situations, that do not unduly disadvantage a trans child, but under NO circumstances would disadvantage the other pupils.I even hinted at the use of other staff ( quite possibly sp needs ancillary staff , who are good at being discreet ,to ensure that no pupil is put in a difficult position.

Although there is an urban legend that schools are willing to make ( eg) 13 year old girls shower naked with people with penises, simple common sense will suggest the following;

School teachers, HODs senior managements and governors are not at all keen to have a stream of parents and reporters coming to the school to complain . Especially if the complaint is one which would bring the school into bad reputation locally and nationally. They ( me once) have a keen eye for potential trouble. And mixed changing rooms are trouble with a capital T for trans .
So they devise arrangements that keep everyone happy, and safe, AND CAN BE PROVED TO DO SO. The Brighton document seemed to me to offer ample scope for that.I could have satisfied the requirements of that document, without putting anyone at risk of embarrassment, given input into details of timetabling, and short term availability of support staff

And no, I did not mean to suggest that a transgirl should be able to see girls in such a state of undress. I was just doing my best to give examples of ways that schools can be SEEN to be fair to everyone.

But thank ( insert name of god of choice) I don't have to do stuff like that any more. And there are financial costs.

FairytaleOfWigan · 10/12/2018 23:42

That sounds lovely, fair to everyone, no one disadvantaged.

So how would it actually work, you have a trans girl who wishes to be treated exactly the same as the XX girls ?

“ Simple common sense” might suggest all sorts of things to you that may not be acceptable to the trans girl and the parents, such as a third space.

Remember that their whole identity depends on everyone else pretending to believe that they are female. Compromise won’t work.

Remember too that you if you don’t do exactly what they want, when they want it, they will kill themsleves and it will be YOUR FAULT.

And of course you will lose your job for being a hateful bigot, because TGAG.

Please explain to me this win win solution .

KayM2 · 10/12/2018 23:58

The rights of the trans -identified child do not trump the rights of the other pupils. Who are more numerous.This was very much my type of area, though the word "disabled " would be substituted for " trans-identified".

If anyone cares to have a look back at what I have actually tried to say, they will see that I am saying that it is possible to satisfy the needs of the equality crew AND keep the other pupils safe, and free from embarrassment. It takes ingenuity, and there are implications for staff and facilities.

This is a sort of cloud cuckoo land issue; find examples of actual instances of girls being forced to be in showers at the same time and in the same place, as people with willies, and I will show you an example of disciplinary action being taken, and same day suspension of staff.

It COULD happen, if someone blew it. Has it? apart from in urban myths, I mean? Because that Brighton Guidance quoted earlier is just guidance, and is workable. People in schools are quite fond of the pay plopping into their bank accounts each month. Mixed Yr 8 showers would risk that coming to an end, sharpish.

BubonicTheHedgehag · 10/12/2018 23:59

Why can't male-bodied young people change with all their other male-bodied peers?

Why the drama? Would there be a risk of pregnancy, for example?